Case for Nuclear Civil Defense Preparation.

[Baibars_1260]

After experiencing the effect of nuclear blast on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, discussing a contingency plan to face this catastrophe has become a taboo for the nations of the World.
Only mentally retarded leadership will opt for such action against any nation. Nukes or WMDs are only for deterrence to avoid any full scale war

It's not taboo. Both the USSR, Warsaw Pact, and NATO encouraged their citizens to look out for themselves during and after a nuclear attack. They were not fatalists. Today there are declassified videos, documents, posters, available to view on line. These are indicative of how seriously Cold War adversaries took the threat.

Only mentally retarded leadership will opt for such action against any nation.

Not mentally retarded, but a highly intelligent vicious, enemy with a warped sense of righting perceived wrongs through a nuclear strike. Unfortunately despite the intelligence there is also a delusion that promotes the mindset that a nuclear war is winnable, The enemy sincerely believes that it alone has nuclear weapons and strike us at will with no retaliation.

Unless we are not convinced, that the world being forced towards its own destruction by its very occupant - humankind, the taboo will remain taboo.

It is not the world that is being forced towards its own destruction. The world realized long since that nuclear wars are not winnable.
It is two countries Pakistan and it's enemy that are moving towards destruction. This is because Pakistan's enemy has decided that a nuclear war is winnable.

 

[peagle]

Good post @peagle
As you have correctly pointed out we are too close to the enemy to have sufficient warning of a nuclear strike. We can neither be forewarned of, or prevent a nuclear
strike.

It is surviving the aftermath that is important. Not just Pakistan, there is no country in the world, that can protect its population in the event of a nuclear strike ( Watch the movie " The Day After...").
Even the 30 minute warning is mostly cosmetic. Ducking under the table or lying at the base of the wall won't help in a direct hit.
In any case as I said in my earlier posts much of the Western Soviet Union ( Moscow, Kiev etc.) and Eastern Europe was under a 5 minute ( or less ) nuclear alert due to Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles in Europe. So was Britain, France, Germany, Austria Belgium etc. Until the IRBM treaty was signed and the focus shifted to slower cruise missiles the population of Europe, Britain and the Soviet Union were very philosophical about the nuclear threat. They were more concerned about the aftermath. The lucky ones in a nuclear attack are the ones, who are killed in the first few seconds.

But there were always peace overtures at the worst of times, such as when Gorbachov and Reagan said that they would like to play with their grandchildren. Yuri Andropov replied to American schoolgirl Samantha Smith who asked him why he wanted to kill her. Samantha visited the Soviet Union and spent time with ordinary Soviet children at a children's camp at a resort. Soviet Air Force helicopter pilots who courageously flew over the damaged reactor in Chernobyl spewing lethal radiation and capped it dumping loads of concrete were mortally sick. Having more advanced medical facilities in the treatment of radiation exposure US hospitals opened their doors to treat these pilots. Despite the efforts of the American doctors all the pilots died. These heroic Soviet pilots were venerated by their American colleagues who gave them a military salute as their bodies were flown home.

We don't have this accommodation with our enemy. It is religious hatred which has no cure. Our enemy doesn't believe they will be harmed in a nuclear showdown with us. Just as in World War 2, Hitler never believed Berlin or any part of Germany could be bombed.

So the purpose of this thread is not to explore how to avoid a nuclear war. If we can avoid a nuclear war that would be the best thing that could happen.
- If a nuclear strike does happen those of us who survive ( if we survive) should be prepared for the aftermath.
Even in a protracted conventional
war resulting in attrition saturation bombing we as individuals must know how to prepare for it.

Simply keeping a wad of cotton in our pockets, and inserting it in our ears could prevent our eardrums from bursting and permanently deafening us in a blast. The Vietnamese learned this the hard way.
We talk so lightly about war with our enemy guests threatening this and that to each other and none of us know or care what really happens in a war.

The Cold War never turned hot for a reason. Europe had seen two World Wars. In India and Pakistan we are too focused on our smart-phones and tablets to see what real war is like. The fact that there won't be an internet or smart-phones, and we will have to go back to Ham Radios, (what is a Ham Radio? ), is lost on the crowd here.

I sometimes cynically wish there was a war so that these keyboard warriors here who write acronyms like "LMAO" ROFL, with see real blood and charred bodies, and then see if they day LMAO.

Sorry if I disappoint you, but I have been wishing for a war for few years, especially since that strike. The Indians actually live in a fantasy world, even the ones born here, its like a bubble. I am talking from first hand experiences, from statements by Indians about other Indians, and readings and watching their program since the age of YouTube. Even the most sensible Indian turns into a hate zombie as soon as Islam, Muslim and especially Pakistan is mentioned.

The 4th word is China, which still was given some leeway, primarily because of 1962, that episode haunts them. But that's changing slowly, because China is so powerful, they are still careful about what they say. An Indian understands nothing but power, that's the whole lot of them. So, for them, fantasy is reality. I've actually hear one Indian foreign secretary say, in a long interview, that Pakistan gained independence from India, and another strongly claim that the Chinese admit India had won the 1962 war. Simply delusional.

They have this fantasy of 1971 stuck in their head. And it will not leave unless there is a war. They fail to recognise the facts, and situation in which that episode happened. A civil war, the more powerful section over 1000 miles away, they still had to sign a defence pact with the Soviet Union, and go around the world capitals to judge what their reactions would be, and the fact Pakistan was 10 times smaller. So, yes, I do wish for war. Once their fantasy of being able to crush tiny little Pakistan is blown out of their heads, only then, we will start seeing peace in South Asia.

Regarding nuclear, I wont add anymore, as it get into if and buts, I like conclusions lol. But, I do understand and largely agree with many of the points you raise.
Sometimes, you just have to say what the f..k, if you want it, lets go. You cannot reason with an Indian, only rarely, and those I've only found here on PDF, I've yet to meet a reasonable Indian in my life, regarding the 4 words I mentioned above. For that matter I put the Pakistanis in the same category. The only difference being, Pakistanis are not full of hate, anger yes, but not hate. That's is a massive difference, India and Indians hate one thing or another, it is so deep inside them. But who cares.
So, before this turns into a even longer irrelevant rant lol, I'll stop here.

It is two countries Pakistan and it's enemy that are moving towards destruction. This is because Pakistan's enemy has decided that a nuclear war is winnable.

Words matter,
So I think its important to say it as it is, and not drag Pakistan into this equation.
When you mention both, even while laying the responsibility on India, Pakistan is also made responsible.

There is only one country that is moving towards destruction, that's India, Pakistan is its target, so not two countries, but one. its an important differentiation. That matters.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Words matter,
So I think its important to say it as it is, and not drag Pakistan into this equation.
When you mention both, even while laying the responsibility on India, Pakistan is also made responsible.

There is only one country that is moving towards destruction, that's India, Pakistan is its target, so not two countries, but one. its an important differentiation. That matters.

Apologies for the confusion.
That is exactly what I meant. The responsibility for a nuclear holocaust in the region will lie solely with our enemy. It only believes that a nuclear war is winnable.

On the enemy delusions :
That is exactly what makes the situation dangerous. By pumping up fake news through the media, religious frenzy and demonizing of a people are all the ingredients of a forthcoming fascist inspired war of annihilation.
No one in India talks peace. It is only revenge.
Here again is the difference in the Cold War scenario. Even the Soviet Union with its propaganda machine was far more realistic than India.
In the early stages of television the Soviet Union had no way of beaming terrestrial broadcast across such a huge territory and TV could only be local. But later they did develop satellite transmissions which got intercepted by Western monitoring stations after they broke the complex transmission codes.
Soviet TV talk shows on local community stations intercepted by Western hacking showed a remarkable realism of the West and no animosity towards the people of the adversary countries.
This is not the case with India. A guest from our enemy country here is propagating a rather ingenious psyop that there will likely be 100% casualties with a nuclear strike and there is no place to hide or survive the aftermath. In theory he may be right if no retaliation is successful from Pakistan and all the 200+ warheads strike home targeting every population segment though I don't know how that would cover the expat labor population in other countries or a small place like Pir Ghaib.

 

[SQ8]

Excellent thread - however , I would request that the key aspect of actually educating the population is being left out. Rather, the mental conditioning of the population will respond the same way it does to a vaccination campaign.

So that challenge remains - in addition, with nearly 35 million in the greater Karachi metro area alone, evacuations on the dilapidated and overburdened road network are all but hopeless.
It may be better to think of creating a “critical” list in which key intelligencia and personnel responsible for nation building are included. No military personnel can lead this commission, only vetted neutral scientific, economic and social leadership should compile it.
In the event that the NSC deems the situation heading to that scenario, these people(be it 10000 or 100000) are to be given evacuation instructions and guidelines to head to remote areas. These people can then form the key rebuilding leadership along with whatever remains of the population and military.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Surviving the aftermath

We need easy access to the following:

• Flashlight
• Portable radio
• Batteries
• First-aid kit
• Necessary medicines
• Sealed food, such as canned foods, and bottled water
• Manual can opener
• Cash and credit cards
• Extra clothes

@arjunk please critique my comments below.

We are assuming a "bug out" after the attack. Karachi will become uninhabitable within 24 hours after the attack. So the kit would need to be broken up into what is needed immediately and what can be carried to the "bug out".

1. Pocket or DIY Geiger Counter ( see my post on radiation sickness) or
Android Geiger counter App.
The Geiger Counter is a sure way to determine what stuff is edible,
what needs to be discarded ( basically clothes, cooking gear etc.) .
Most important of all the Geiger Counter can determine if water is
safe to drink. The Geiger Counter is the most important life saving
tool as we shall see.

2. Drinking water:
People will dehydrate, ( especially babies and elderly) and die quickly within 3 to 4 days without drinking water. The water mains will go dry immediately after a nuclear attack. There will be no power for pumps and no water towers will be left standing. Storing the water in sealed glass bottles that are buried underground is a good preparation but that may not be possible unless tensions with the enemy indicate a nuclear strike is imminent . However storing empty glass bottles is a good idea as we shall see.
Alternative sources of water will need to be found:

Depending on the weather some rain water can be harvested using buckets, rubber sheets, and different water traps. The Geiger counter will measure the degree of radiation in the rain water. Water can be stored in glass bottles that are reusable and can be washed if contaminated.

A solar desalination kit either commercial or DIY using a tray, glass plate, and tubing can be used to harvest drinking water from the sea. Once again the Geiger Counter will help determine the radioactivity on the coastline and the glass bottles can be reused. Open wells would also need to be checked.

The case for glass bottles:
These can be sterilized by cleaning boiling, and reuse . Disposable plastic bottles will vanish once the petrol stations, and grocery stores have been demolished in the attack.

Flashlight:
Only solar rechargeable or hand crank flashlights will work. Batteries will become unavailable. Also needed would be paraffin or kerosene lamps though once again these would only last as long as there are paraffin or kerosene stocks available. Solar powered lamps charged in the day and lit at night are the only viable alternative.
For those living close to the beach small wind chargers are a good way to charge batteries.

First aid kit:
We have discussed this in our previous post. The first aid kit would have to be very large with adequate stocks of burn medication, Silver Sulphadine. There would need to be Potassium Iodide tablets.

Food:
Canned food is fine, but is expensive and very large stocks would be needed. Cooking and heating facilities will be at a premium. Food that is nutritious, can be stored without spoiling and unrefrigerated , but needs no cooking would be:

-Puffed rice, peanuts, gram, ( and expensive ones such as walnuts, pistachios, almonds , raisins ). These are easily stored.

-Powdered milk would be a great asset. Mixed with water this couod be given to children.

Cash & credit cards:
The economy would collapse so neither cash nor credit cards would be valid within a very short time. Low denominations of cash would work for a while. There would eventually be a barter economy with gold functional in stead of cash. Using snip shears to cut up family gold jewelry into 1 gram bits would help in trade and barter.

That should be enough to survive for weeks or a few months until foreign rescue services try to arrive (at least at Karachi since it's at the coast).
I believe a nuclear tipped ABM around major population centers is the only way to protect against a Nuclear blast.

We don't have an ABM system. We won't survive on the kit alone.
Relief is unlikely to come in a few months or at all. . How we choose to live, depends on area where we live.
A "bug out" is necessary

There is nowhere to survive. India has 150+ nukes and enough material to build 200+. They only need 20 to target all major cities. The rest will go to areas people will try to hide in. Multiple 60kt nukes (~3) may be needed to completely destroy Karachi, so even Hub might not be safe. Currently, the wind would blow the fallout southeast, but that may not be the case all year or even all day long.

We are referring to those who survive. Yes, very few of us will, given the large numbers of warheads landing in a relatively small area such as Pakistan. It is estimated that more people will die of the aftermath than of the impacts themselves. You are correct that Hub may not be a good refuge. We will discuss the bug out in the next post.

 

[arjunk]

Surviving the aftermath


@arjunk please critique my comments below.

We are assuming a "bug out" after the attack. Karachi will become uninhabitable within 24 hours after the attack. So the kit would need to be broken up into what is needed immediately and what can be carried to the "bug out".

1. Pocket or DIY Geiger Counter ( see my post on radiation sickness) or
Android Geiger counter App.
The Geiger Counter is a sure way to determine what stuff is edible,
what needs to be discarded ( basically clothes, cooking gear etc.) .
Most important of all the Geiger Counter can determine if water is
safe to drink. The Geiger Counter is the most important life saving
tool as we shall see.

2. Drinking water:
People will dehydrate, ( especially babies and elderly) and die quickly within 3 to 4 days without drinking water. The water mains will go dry immediately after a nuclear attack. There will be no power for pumps and no water towers will be left standing. Storing the water in sealed glass bottles that are buried underground is a good preparation but that may not be possible unless tensions with the enemy indicate a nuclear strike is imminent . However storing empty glass bottles is a good idea as we shall see.
Alternative sources of water will need to be found:

Depending on the weather some rain water can be harvested using buckets, rubber sheets, and different water traps. The Geiger counter will measure the degree of radiation in the rain water. Water can be stored in glass bottles that are reusable and can be washed if contaminated.

A solar desalination kit either commercial or DIY using a tray, glass plate, and tubing can be used to harvest drinking water from the sea. Once again the Geiger Counter will help determine the radioactivity on the coastline and the glass bottles can be reused. Open wells would also need to be checked.

The case for glass bottles:
These can be sterilized by cleaning boiling, and reuse . Disposable plastic bottles will vanish once the petrol stations, and grocery stores have been demolished in the attack.

Flashlight:
Only solar rechargeable or hand crank flashlights will work. Batteries will become unavailable. Also needed would be paraffin our kerosene lamps though once again these would only last as long as there are paraffin or kerosene stocks available. Solar powered lamps charged in the day and lit at night are the only viable alternative.
For those living close to the beach small wind chargers are a good way to charge batteries.

First aid kit:
We have discussed this in our previous post. The first aid kit would have to be very large with adequate stocks of burn medication, Silver Sulphadine. There would need to be Potassium Iodide tablets.

Food:
Canned food is fine, but is expensive and very large stocks would be needed. Cooking and heating facilities will be at a premium. Food that is nutritious, can be stored without spoiling and unrefrigerated , but needs no cooking would be:

-Puffed rice, peanuts, gram, ( and expensive ones such as walnuts, pistachios, almonds , raisins ). These are easily stored.

-Powdered milk would be a great asset. Mixed with water this couod be given to children.

Cash & credit cards:
The economy would collapse so neither cash nor credit cards would be valid within a very short time. Low denominations of cash would work for a while. There would eventually be a barter economy with gold functional in stead of cash. Using snip shears to cut up family gold jewelry into 1 gram bits would help in trade and barter.



We don't have an ABM system. We won't survive on the kit alone.
Relief is unlikely to come in a few months or at all. . How we choose to live, depends on area where we live.
A "bug out" is necessary



We are referring to those who survive. Yes, very few of us will, given the large numbers of warheads landing in a relatively small area such as Pakistan. It is estimated that more people will die of the aftermath than of the impacts themselves. You are correct that Hub may not be a good refuge. We will discuss the bug out in the next post.

For widespread use of a Geiger counter we will need to educate the masses (who refuse to wear a mask or take a polio vaccine) and ensure that they have android phones capable of using such a device. Most people in Karachi use keypad nokia phones, and those who do use touchscreen smartphones are using pretty old ones which might not be able to act as or communicate with a Geiger counter. Supplying Geiger counters to every fourth, fifth, or even tenth person will be pretty costly. For Karachi alone, (35,000,000/4) *$70 = $612.5 million. For 225 million people it would cost almost $4 Billion (630 Trillion Rupees at a rate of 160Rs/$) And then there's the need to give them solar or hand cranked rechargeable batteries.

Instructions of how to build a basic radio with equipment should be made available to the public. This could be done through posters, TV broadcasts, social media, etc. While this will not be as widespread as food or Geiger counters, even a few radios will be enough to communicate over distances. Maybe the material should be included in the kit, or it could be in a separate special kit. It should run on hand cranked batteries or solar. (maybe basic information on how circuits work could be included).

Those who do survive will be in interior Balochistan or very remote areas of Gilgit-Baltistan. Those up north could potentially move to China, if they have the resources and the Chinese are willing to accept. India won't dare drop a nuke that would affect China badly so I believe those in remote areas of Gilgit-Baltistan have the best chance. Those in Balochistan may try to move to Iran (or Afghanistan if it's really bad) but infrastructure there is basically non existent and the weather and terrain is harsh so it will be extremely difficult.

We should raise awareness about fitness and health, and start banning junk food with harmful products in it. Unhealthy people will suffer the most, spread suffering to others, and be a huge liability.

I think soap should be included in the kit, and with the current situation, masks might also have to be included in the kit (but this might make it too expensive).

IIRC distilled water doesn't contain the minerals normal water does, so drinking it might not make a difference. In fact, drinking pure water is actually really bad for you since it sucks minerals out of your body.

Because of nuclear winter, the wind may change significantly, making wind power unreliable. Moreover, the coastline will be the most irradiated place if the wind blows southeast.

We should digitise all our records and back them up in servers located in allied countries (eg. China, Turkey) and preserve any other data needed.

I believe we need a nuclear tipped ABM because unlike normal ABMs which have to be precise, many are needed etc, only a few nuclear ABMs are needed. In fact, a regular nuclear ballistic missile like Ghanavi or Shaheen or a SAM could theoretically be launched on a path close to an incoming missile and detonate somewhat close to it high in the sky. That will spread some radiation, but the shockwave will be too far away to cause as much physical damage as it normally could. So they seem affordable. The cost of such a system is less than the cost of an ordinary ABM, and an entire city, after all.

Unfortunately, last I checked, the the military and government have no actual strategy to use tactical/strategic nukes, they're just there to say 'I can blow you up and I will,' to put India in its place.

Either way, our government/establishment needs to fix their attitude of only taking action AFTER a catastrophe. They should start preparing these kits now, and distribute them when the time is right. Begin TV broadcasts about the topic. Teach kids in school/unis. The threat of a nuclear war in South Asia is very much real, and just as severe as it was in the cold war.

Someone with a medical/science degree should verify the statements on this thread too.

 

[AMRAAM]

Past enemy regimes knew,, and acknowledged the risk of severe damage from retaliatory strike. Which is why they kept their fingers off the nuclear trigger.
Unfortunately the current fascist enemy regime is driven by an Apocalyptic mindset based on obscure ancient mythology.

It is even more unfortunate that the enemy is delusional enough to believe that we can't retaliate.

This is what I've been saying since Feb 2019. We need to put fear in their hearts somehow to prevent this WAR. They are damn delusional and can't foresee the annihilation on each side.

I wish I could have given you a positive rating. This is an excellent thread highlighting what individuals can do to minimize the damage.

 

[Baibars_1260]

For widespread use of a Geiger counter we will need to educate the masses (who refuse to wear a mask or take a polio vaccine) and ensure that they have android phones capable of using such a device. Most people in Karachi use keypad nokia phones, and those who do use touchscreen smartphones are using pretty old ones which might not be able to act as or communicate with a Geiger counter. Supplying Geiger counters to every fourth, fifth, or even tenth person will be pretty costly. For Karachi alone, (35,000,000/4) *$70 = $612.5 million. For 225 million people it would cost almost $4 Billion (630 Trillion Rupees at a rate of 160Rs/$) And then there's the need to give them solar or hand cranked rechargeable batteries.

Excellent point ! It is a sober realization that our population is nowhere close as literate, informed, prosperous or even socially patriotic as the populations of the Cold War adversaries. Even back in the early 1950s the populations of the Eastern Europe, Western Europe the USA and Soviet Union had started educating themselves about basic survival tools such as Geiger counters and how these were to be built and used. Vintage copies of magazines like Popular Mechanics , Amateur Wireless, and their Soviet counterparts carried instructions on circuits and material to build basic Geiger Counters. Due to excellent focused education, and availability of labs, and workshops, teenage high school students of that era were building these in the 1950s. Today their work is preserved and being disseminated online such as in videos like the one below. The modern DIY Geiger Counters are far more compact than their 50s era counterparts that were the size of a shoebox.

You are correct that providing even the cheapest Geiger Counter to one in ten persons in Karachi is an impossible task. This would have to be a community or voluntary effort. Of course wealthy individuals would easily order one ( or order the App used on the Android phones with the probe ). Making people aware is vital.

Instructions of how to build a basic radio with equipment should be made available to the public. This could be done through posters, TV broadcasts, social media, etc. While this will not be as widespread as food or Geiger counters, even a few radios will be enough to communicate over distances. Maybe the material should be included in the kit, or it could be in a separate special kit. It should run on hand cranked batteries or solar. (maybe basic information on how circuits work could be included).

Agree entirely. I would classify these as three types:
Receiver sets.
1. Expensive hand cranked solar receiver sets ( Price $70-$100 ) with emergency channels as recommended by FEMA in the USA or by the UN Relief and Rehabilitation agency.

2. Ultra-Cheap receiver DIY "no power" Crystal Sets. In the early 1920s these were the household radio until commercially available powered super-het tube ( valve ) sets became available. Crystal sets being discreet and easily concealed were revived during World War 2 by occupied populations in Europe to listen to uncensored news from foreign radio stations. In the 1950s the awareness of building and using Crystal sets were made widespread ( Soviet Union, USA, Europe ). Crystal Sets use no power, last indefinitely, are not affected by EMP, and are simple to make and ultra cheap. In the 1950s the availability of miniature germanium (and later silicon ) diodes became far easier, so the critical "crystal" detector in the Crystal set was no longer an impediment. The Warsaw Pact , USA, and NATO countries made 100s of millions of miniature crystal diodes and manufactured large quantities of 25 swg ( gauge) copper wire to make tuning coils. Today there is detailed information on how to build these sets on-line. Even though much better detector modules are now available, the tiny diodes are still being manufactured and made available ( "just in case").

3. Two way or transmitter receiver ( transceiver) radios:
Because, normal land line, mobile phone, and internet communication will be permanently non-functional, two way radios and Ham radios would be the only option for communication. Unfortunately, unlike crystal set receivers these need to be powered in some way. A source of electric power would be needed so hand cranked generators, small wind chargers, solar chargers would be necessary. Once again there is a precedent. Both the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, and NATO designated certain frequencies for civilian use ( one short range version is known as Citizens Band ) . These countries encouraged citizens to own, build, and operate Ham radios as an unbreakable communications system in the event of a nuclear attack. This system is still in place. Operating a Ham radio needs a license but this was easily given to bonafide citizens with no criminal record. The Ham sets themselves have undergone a tremendous change . The U.K. made thousands of "parasets" in World War 2 to distribute to the occupied populations in Europe enabling their resistance to discreetly communicate amongst themselves and abroad. Likewise the USA supporting anti-Japanese resistance in the Philippines, and their "Coast Watch " operatives in Pacific islands had their own " parasets" . The Soviet Union supplied their own partisan population with "parasets".
The parasets worked extremely well for the duration of the war providing fairly reliable communications over long distances regardless of availability of power. The parasets were relatively simple to operate and maintain, and were rugged, portable and reliable.

In the Cold War these "parasets" became the basis for more advanced models with much more versatility and range and a wider array of batteries and their charging devices ( wind, hand crank, car batteries ). Better vacuum tubes ( valves ), and ultimately transistors drastically lowered the power consumed . The Ham models became compact , reduced in size from the wartime small suitcase size, to a shoe box size table top. Today a wide array of CB radios, CB Walkie Talkies ( known as "Family" radios) are available. The cheapest are the "Family radios" with a range of 60 km over water or coastline and cost around $35- $60.
The early Ham sets were designed with vacuum tubes so were relatively immune to an EMP. Modern Ham sets come with a Faraday cage which also renders them immune to an EMP. The biggest advantage with modern Ham sets is that they are likely to be on air very intermittently so a large number are expected to survive a nuclear attack.
However unlike Crystal sets, only a skilled electronic technician can home build a Ham set. The simplest World War 2 Ham paraset can be built by a low level neighborhood radio repairman but this is primitive and we cannot assume those components will be available. The WW2 parasets mainly worked off the Morse Code and few people (
other than ex-serviceman ) know Morse Code these days.

Those who do survive will be in interior Balochistan or very remote areas of Gilgit-Baltistan. Those up north could potentially move to China, if they have the resources and the Chinese are willing to accept. India won't dare drop a nuke that would affect China badly so I believe those in remote areas of Gilgit-Baltistan have the best chance. Those in Balochistan may try to move to Iran (or Afghanistan if it's really bad) but infrastructure there is basically non existent and the weather and terrain is harsh so it will be extremely difficult.

Agree, will take this up in my next post.

I think soap should be included in the kit, and with the current situation, masks might also have to be included in the kit (but this might make it too expensive).

How could I miss this. . This is the most important survival tool in the aftermath. Scrubbing off every radioactive particle from our bodies is vital to make us live longer.

Enjoy your inputs, Please contribute.

 

[Baibars_1260]

This is what I've been saying since Feb 2019. We need to put fear in their hearts somehow to prevent this WAR. They are damn delusional and can't foresee the annihilation on each side.

It is chilling but there is nothing we can do about the enemy delusions. In 1998 the incumbent enemy government did not believe our nation had any nuclear capabilities and would not respond to the aggressive posturing of multiple nuclear tests. The preceding government and all the world knew Pakistan would respond. The enemy neither accepted or believed it till it happened.
This AP report sums it up.

The danger now is that an even more delusional extremist regime is in power which believes Pakistan has either no nuclear capacity ; or whatever modest nuclear capacity it demonstrates, it is fearful of using.
The enemy believes it can intercept or neutralize any nuclear response from us, while at the same time obliterating us forever.
A pacifist government in power ( or at least one with a pacifist stance ) is giving a very dangerous encouragement to this delusion which is fueled by fake self inciting hyper-nationalist propaganda. This was not the case in 1998. There was a credible opposition in the enemy camp that was far more realistic and social media and fake news propagated by multiple TV channels had not taken off.
We need a separate thread to discuss this as it is off topic here.

I wish I could have given you a positive rating. This is an excellent thread highlighting what individuals can do to minimize the damage.

Thank you.
Please do contribute to this thread with your views and suggestions.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Have enough safety measures to ensure we have some sort of a society left, if such a thing was to happen. You do that by creating safety mechanisms for the essentials, that's the leadership, and talent in all spheres of life, food stocks agriculture seeds etc. And, information for the private citizens, for those who wish to take steps on their own, it may save some depending on radiation exposure.

It may be better to think of creating a “critical” list in which key intelligencia and personnel responsible for nation building are included. No military personnel can lead this commission, only vetted neutral scientific, economic and social leadership should compile it.
In the event that the NSC deems the situation heading to that scenario, these people(be it 10000 or 100000) are to be given evacuation instructions and guidelines to head to remote areas. These people can then form the key rebuilding leadership along with whatever remains of the population and military.

@peagle @SQ8

Excellent idea. If we have to have residual members of the society left to govern and rebuild the country we should have a group (voluntary) in place.
Once again, Cold War adversaries have thought of this which is why there are top secret shadow governments ready to take over in the event of an existing government being decapitated in a nuclear strike. This shadow government is highly dispersed and only each member knows that exactly what his or her role is. They look like ordinary citizens but of course are sworn to secrecy. I don't think we have something like thar in place.

Could you contribute some more on this aspect of survival?
@arjunk Please do contribute.

What would be the structure? SQ8 said 100,000 core individuals.

 

[Saudang]

In my understanding, Pakistan does not face any risk of a nuclear preventive strike from India. India will never take that risk of killing its global standing, nor do it needs to do that given its conventional military superiority.


However Pakistan definitely faces the risk of a Nuclear retaliation of massive scale to any first use of Nuclear weapons, no matter how small it may be or even it is inside Pakistan. Given that India does not officially have tactical nuclear weapons, most probably the Indian retaliation will be in urban military locations, and multiple weapons at a time..


So Pakistan controls its fate when it comes to nuclear weapons

 

[Baibars_1260]

In my understanding, Pakistan does not face any risk of a nuclear preventive strike from India. India will never take that risk of killing its global standing, nor do it needs to do that given its conventional military superiority.

Thanks, but we have already discussed this.

If India can make a pre-emptive conventional strike in Balakot it can make a pre-emptive nuclear strike also. If those Mirages had been carrying 20 kt nuclear bombs it wouldn't have mattered if they missed the target and hit some trees.
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India did attempt a followup missile attack but was deterred at the last minute due to Pakistan getting wind of the impending attack and the risk of retaliation "on launch"

The UN Charter allows the right of pre-emption

However Pakistan definitely faces the risk of a Nuclear retaliation of massive scale to any first use of Nuclear weapons, no matter how small it may be or even it is inside Pakistan. Given that India does not officially have tactical nuclear weapons, most probably the Indian retaliation will be in urban military locations, and multiple weapons at a time..
So Pakistan controls its fate when it comes to nuclear weapons

We do control our own fate, and there will never be a 1971 again.
If we can't defend our land we will not leave it intact to be enslaved by the invader. We will choose a nuclear holocaust over capitulation.
As for the invader, it would be controlling or (not controlling) its own fate, by attacking and invading us ; whether conventionally or otherwise.
So India controls its own fate when it comes to nuclear weapons also...

Meanwhile, to get back to the topic of the thread, would request you to read the rest of the thread and comment.

Question: Has the Government of India Post and Telegraph Wireless Telephony Act been amended to allow easier licensing of Ham Radios?
@PanzerKiel @arjunk @Cliftonite @VkdIndian @jamahir @masterchief_mirza

 

[Saudang]

If India can make a pre-emptive conventional strike in Balakot it can make a pre-emptive nuclear strike also. If those Mirages had been carrying 20 kt nuclear bombs it wouldn't have mattered if they missed the target and hit some trees.

Hitting few terrorist camps with standoff weapons is very different from mounting a preemptive counter force strike. Nobody in today's world will get away with this kind of decisions. either governments know that very well.

In all possibility, both India & Pakistan will fight conventionally till one of the armies are about to take over the capital of the other.. for that to happen, we have to kill many million people and till that no nuclear exchange ..

 

[arjunk]

At Chernobyl, locals dug up a few metres of top level soil. This reduced radiation levels to the extent that it is safe to stand pretty close to the reactor with little to no protective measures.

Similarly, locals are doing this at Fukushima.

These measures could be taken in Punjab and the "Green Belt."

Question: Has the Government of India Post and Telegraph Wireless Telephony Act been amended to allow easier licensing of Ham Radios?

It says the "Director General Pakistan Telegraph and Telephone Department, and includes any officer empowered by him to perform all or any of the functions of the telegraph authority under this Act;" are allowed to set up " any apparatus, equipment or plant used for transmitting, emitting, making or receiving signs, signals, writing, speech, sound or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio or visual or electro-magnetic system." According to it, “telegraph officer” means any person employed either permanently or temporarily in connection with a telegraph established, maintained or worked by the Federal Government or by a person licensed under this Act;

I can't tell what effect this has on ease of licensing of Ham Radios. The content is more about what happens if you violate the license than who can get one and how easily. This act looks like it's stuck in the 1900s because a phone could also be capable of "transmitting, emitting, making or receiving signs, signals, writing, speech, sound or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio or visual or electro-magnetic system."

https://www.fia.gov.pk/en/law/Offences/26.pdf

 

[Cliftonite]

Let's not kid ourselves. A nuclear attack will be 10 times worse than the 2005 earthquake.

And it won't be short of an Armageddon. We will definitely go down. But we should take India down with us.

India doesn't have the balls for a first strike though. Any attack in our side of the Punjab means Delhi is decimated in return.

How apt it would have been if we still had East Pakistan. One strike at Delhi, one strike at Calcutta or Patna. 600 million people in the Ganges belt affected.

India will most definitely strike Karachi though. We need to declutter.