Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Nasr]

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

That is a very interesting bit of information from the past, you have shared with us. Thank you

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

When I was young---I was told a story by my grandmother about a guy who threw a shoe at the whirl wind---the Jinn in the whirl wind threw out a bag of money---damn I was impressed---.

Then on another occasion when I was still young---my uncle says---don't throw any thing in the whirl wind----. I asked why---he stated that the Jinn in the whirl wind throw it back at you if he is mad that day---and hit you hard. I asked how---.

He says---a guy threw a shoe at the whirl wind---because he had heard of the bag of money---the Jinn was mad that day---he threw the shoe back at the guy and hit him very hard in the head---.

I was too young to understand the PHYSICS of both the actions---but Rauf's post delivered me a bag of GOLD---.

@MIRauf ---thank you very much---. You are a happy and a kind Jinn---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

There were a few Mirage F-1 episodes from what I was told.

1. The French offered the Mirage F-1 to existing Mirage III/5 users, among them South Africa, Pakistan and Egypt. It wasn't made clear to me if the PAF was considering a general purpose aircraft to replace the F-6, F-86 or both, but I guess this episode was that of the whole Egypt debacle.

2. In the late 1970s/early 1980s, the US was reluctant to release the F-16 Block-5/10/15 and C/D outside of NATO (and key allies, such as Iran, Japan, South Korea, etc). So to Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, it only offered the F-20 and F-16 79. WikiLeaks claims that at this time, the PAF was speaking to the French about the F-1 and M2K, and the US was even willing to help with securing a line-of-credit. But when Reagan changed the export policy, I think the US must have pivoted that program to backing F-16 sales instead?

3. When the Sabre II was floating about, an alternative proposal was to take-up the Mirage F-1's production line from Dassault. The French Gov't apparently offered the entire line plus a large stock of Atar turbojet engines, but the PAF supposedly wanted the platform with a turbofan engine instead. However, Dassault was unwilling to work on a M53-equipped F-1 (ironically, a turbofan might have been tenable only a few years later, but from Russia in the RD-33 or RD-93).

4. Not exactly Mirage F-1, but the Thales radar, avionics and weapons suite the PAF wanted for the JF-17 was the same one for the Mirage F-1-F2000, i.e., RDY-3, MICA, etc.

 

[Tank131]

There are 2 events that are known surrounding the F-16s which, had PAF gone a different route, Pakistan would have been in a far better position industrially amd with respect to its aerospace sector. One was passing over production of Mirage F-1 because the French didnt want to put. The effort to integrate the M53. Ironically as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) points out, the South Africans later fitted it with Rd-33 (im not sure if the Russians would have done that for Pakistan back in the day but whatever).

The other was the selection of F-16 over F-20. While the F-16 was the superior fighter, the F-20 was bwing offered with full production setup and rights to the entire project which otherwise would become defunct. While not as stellar a fighter, it was still quite capable and infact had BVR capability and came with Aim-7 Sparrow. The PAF did not have BVR capability until 2005 when the first F-16 underwent MLU.

PAF thought tactically but there was no strategic thinking done (much tue same could be said for its many sectors and issues in Pakistan). Tactically F-16 was superior to both, but strategically, the Mirage F-1 and F-20 offered BVR (where the F-16 didnt for another 23 years) amd the ability to begin your own in house defense production of combat aircraft. Imagine what Israel has done with the venerable Mirage V, turning it into Kfir Block 60. Pakistan could have had that potential but is starting done the path 30years later than it should have.

 

[Signalian]

Childesh you are and I mean really out there stop going and back forth with me you make no sense nor have the knowledge nor the no about of PAF I don't need to you consider jack you are no one but a silly person behind the screen. That's why more then half the people agree with what I stated other then people like you which have no clue keep your dumb comments to your self and keep living in your little boy fantasy world because that's as far as you are going with that dumb mindset of yours.

Hurling personal insults towards me because you cannot prove your point

As for proving points, I would like to see FC-20 in PAF colors for your point to be valid, which has not happened. if there is news in the media, you can share it here. Capability wise, FC-20 stands between F-16 and JF-17, where as JF-17 Block- III is closing fast.

If you disagree, instead of using the insulting tactic (trolls do that) to make me back off, try putting in some aspects why PAF would choose FC-20, apart from the fact that its sanction-free unlike F-16.

 

[Nasr]

The F-16 "bar tenders" keep harping on about how Pakistan Air Force has nothing in its inventory which matches or surpasses it's capabilities. Well, that sounds much like a close ended argument. There is nothing out there, which affordable enough or technologically superior enough to replace the F-16s for Pakistan Air Force. That sort of mentality is exactly why everyone is ham-strung on the notion that the West cannot be surpassed in terms of technology. This sort of thinking exemplifies how closed minded some are that they fail to look beyond the horizon.

In the 9th Century, the Chinese civilization stood at the helm of technology. When the so-called "Western Civilization" was living as savages, the Chinese Civilization invented the Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing. Fast forward 1100 years on, and China today is the leading country on several technological fronts. Leading the way in 5G technology, only the third country in the world to land on the moon, as well as the first country to land on the moon in this century. China leads the world in Pebble Reactor technology, it also leads the world in Solar Power technology. Whereas Russia is the first country on earth which is on the verge of deploying operational Hypersonic Glide Warheads. Russians have also mastered the miniaturization of nuclear reactors, that have the ability to power cruise missiles. No other country, America or otherwise, has managed to this as of yet. And no other seems anywhere close to achieving what Russia has achieved in terms of nuclear reactor miniaturization technology.

I do hate to break it down for those who still hold on (dearly) to the idea that none can match the west in terms of technology. But that ship has been sunk, and it ain't coming back up again. Yes the West has the best fighters, the best engines and so on. But today there lead in technological advances in military fields, is negated, shortened and in some cases surpassed by other countries. Russians have successfully developed the Izedliye-30 engines for its Stealth Fighter and are now going to introduce coatings on its production model Su-57s this year. The Chinese will also be achieving the same with their WS-15 engines for their J-20s. That gives both countries a huge advantage to build hundreds of these fighters in a short period of time, if required. Russia would've and still can build more Su-57s, once it blunts out relentless US hindrances using sanctions, SWIFT international payment system and other financial tools to slow down Russia's rise as a super power.

Now if Pakistan hopes to be in a commanding position in the future, both militarily and economically. Then in needs to extract itself out of this ridiculous mentality that the West above the rest. China did it, Russia has done, heck even the enemy, India has done it in collaboration with the Russians. It is time for Pakistan to kick the can (America/Britain/France) off the road and make headway in joint ventures with countries that have also kicked the can (America/Britain/France) off the road. There are many opportunities that lay ahead for Pakistan, the only one which would get in the way of that, is Pakistanis themselves.

Pakistan Air Force has a bright future ahead of it, despite the adversities and challenges it has faced. The shining star in Pakistan Air Force's armor, is the JF-17 Thunders. I sure hope that PAF manages to forge many more partnerships with those who hold independence and self-reliance above all.

 

[ghazi52]

Our Legendary Aviators of Squadron No.9 - Pakistan Air Force ; Cecil Chaudhry , Aliuddin

 

[mingle]

@Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.

 

[Shabi1]

P

@Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.

Possible source for spares after cannibalization.

 

[Chimgathar]

@Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.

 

[Sine Nomine]

P

Possible source for spares after cannibalization.

They have 82 Mirage 5's in service.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Possibly for spares as paf still need to support 6 mirage squadrons of various roles fir some time

Pakistan is really extracting last of all the juice from these mirages

Mist of egyptian mirages are of mirage 5 varient

 

[denel]

Possibly for spares as paf still need to support 6 mirage squadrons of various roles fir some time

Pakistan is really extracting last of all the juice from these mirages

Mist of egyptian mirages are of mirage 5 varient

jrrrr. this mirage saga will go on for another 15yrs - mark my words. you will have grand children by that time

 

[Sine Nomine]

jrrrr. this mirage saga will go on for another 15yrs - mark my words. you will have grand children by that time

Then what i said is better,new engine(Rd33) and airframe with DSI intakes using everything else in plane.

 

[denel]

Then what i said is better,new engine(Rd33) and airframe with DSI intakes using everything else in plane.

?? clarify. they are not embarking on a super cheetah venture.