Can Indian T-90, T-72 MBTs be considered obsolete?

[Kompromat]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

 

[TheSolution]

And how do our Chinese tanks compare?

Russia has more experience in manufacturing and designing tanks than China, does that mean Chinese tanks are similar or at a level below in reality?

 

[Skull and Bones]

T-90s maybe not, T-72s definitely. Any country that has smart anti tank weapons can wreck havoc on most modern tanks. And Russia did a huge blunder by stretching their supply lines too far without proper air support.

 

[Kompromat]

And how do our Chinese tanks compare?

Russia has more experience in manufacturing and designing tanks than China, does that mean Chinese tanks are similar or at a level below in reality?

Defending forces generally have an advantage on the battlefield because they typically stay connected to their log lines and conduct their combat movmt under protection of their rear end artillery forces, anti tank elements and dominated airspace.

Indian armor will have to mobilize rapidly thus extending its log lines and risking exposure to hostile elements from land and air.

T-90s maybe not, T-72s definitely. Any country that has smart anti tank weapons can wreck havoc on most modern tanks. And Russia did a huge blunder by stretching their supply lines too far without proper air support.

Does IA T-90s have APS or any form of protection from top attack elements?

 

[Horse_Rider]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

There is a thread I opened up. It covers parts of your topics as well. Please take a look at the analysis done:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...the-financial-situation.756534/#post-14122958

Future usage of tanks in large quantities has become less important. Ukraine / Karabagh examples are in front of us. Satellites and Drones see all, can't hide Tanks and Ships anymore. The decisive factor in the future wars will be the following:

1) Air force and BVR weapons and munitions, data linked, pre-programmed and live satellite guided
2) Loitering munitions and drones both for ISR and Combat with AI, pre-programmed and satellite guided for real time target allocation
3) Hi-mach supersonic cruise missiles with depressed trajectory vs. ballistic and subsonic cruise missiles (like Tanks, subsonic missiles and ballistic missiles are becoming a thing of the past). Ideally these should be Hypersonic but hi-mach (3-4 would work also, eventually needing HGV's). A Russian attack with cruise missiles yesterday was repulsed, with Ukraine's AD taking out more than 50 missiles from a 76 missile salvo! So subsonic cruise missiles are losing strategic value quickly due to hi-tech, super fast AD
4) A2AD systems: AD systems. Longer range, faster, deployed in Tiers.
5) Ability to deploy and effectively manage electromagnetic spectrum (includes RF / IR / Lasers / GPS Microwave)
6) LR Artillery / highly movable, laser guided MLRS will become the backbone, like the Ukraine used US based HIMARS.
7) Submarine launched hi-mach cruise missiles with depressed trajectory (eventually to use JGV's)
8) Fast attack missile crafts loaded with hi-mach supersonic missiles with depressed trajectory or HGV's (ideally). High risk assets now include not just tanks, but individual frigates and destroyers also. Not counting CBG's here as a battle group has hundreds of high end advance missile with AEGIS like systems protecting it)
9) Ability to keep a longer term inventory of strategic systems (AD / Fighter aircraft, Munitions, the minimum a nation can use for A2AD and defensive operations)
10) Ability to keep a longer term inventory of SEMI conductors if a nation produces weapons. Sanctions on semi's alone can cripple an entire conflict. In Russia's case, we saw their forces cripple and they were forced to use semi conductor chips to program weapons from washing machines, microwave and refrigerators.

What people don't understand is that with the latest technology churning out very quickly due to excessive computation power that's now available through hi-end distributed servers even (what used to be an operation purely of the super computers), the tech design, simulation and rollout is very quick. Now going forward, if you have 20 years old defense equipment, you may be way behind your enemy. We know India is not only building but acquiring latest weapons at a rapid pace. Secondly, slow moving weapon systems are becoming obsolete and so are subsonic missile systems. The time has come for AI and Speed in almost all kinds of weapons.

 

[Imran Khan]

era of tanks is ending as a whole

 

[iLION12345_1]

And how do our Chinese tanks compare?

Russia has more experience in manufacturing and designing tanks than China, does that mean Chinese tanks are similar or at a level below in reality?

Russian tanks have better metallurgy and design than Chinese tanks, definitely. But they doesn’t mean modern Chinese tanks are bad or anything. I would easily say the best Russian tanks are much better than the best Chinese tanks, but that’s not our problem, because india does not use the best Russian tanks, but we use the best Chinese tanks.

India has basically three tanks making up its entire armored Corps;

At the bottom are the stock T72Ms and M1s, those things are most definitely obsolete, just as the PAs Type 59s and 69s are obsolete. I’d rate both of these at similar levels, despite the Indian T72s being Second Gen MBTs, since PAs 59s and 69s do have some upgrades. Either way, they’re all death traps used out of necessity, and both nations have nearly a thousand of each in active or reserve roles.

The second is the modernized T72s, these fare a bit better, they are comparable to our Al-Zarrars. India has around 1000-1100 of these.

The last is the T90S, the only tank I’d consider not entirely obsolete in the Indian arsenal. They have 1168 of these, and at best they are comparable to PAs T80UDs. Inferior to AK, and nearly half a generation behind AK-1 (a full generation behind VT-4).

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is their ammo, no matter what tank, their entire 3000+ strong fleet uses obsolete Russian ammo from the 80s, while even the oldest of PAs tanks use modern Chinese and local ammo. Another issue would be the abysmal mobility of their tanks.

To put it shortly; yes, the Indian armored fleet is technologically far behind PAs, but that doesn’t mean the PA should celebrate just yet, The Indian armored fleet is much bigger, and it’s just one element of a combined arms warfare doctrine. PAs gunship helicopter fleet is nonexistent at the moment compared to Indias. PAs SP artillery fleet is much superior to Indias. But Indias Towed arty fleet is much superior to Pakistans. Pakistans UAV fleet is much superior to Indias. But IA has much better and more numerous ATGMs.

The list goes on and on, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, but if we are to talk about tank fleets and tech particularly, PA has a very significant edge in quality, just not in quantity.

India has:
1168 T90S (with 464 more on order but their delivery is uncertain due to the war).
1000-1100~ T72 (modernized)
1000+ T72Ms and M1s both in service and reserve.
124 Arjun MK1s (lmao) and 118 Arjun MK1As on order (still lmao).

Pakistan has:
Unknown number of VT4s, but I’d assume somewhere between 150-250, with several hundred more on order, these numbers are going up fast.
120 AK1s, 320 AKs.
300-310 T80UDs
290~ Type 85UGs
700-750 AZs
And several hundred Type 59s and 69s in active or reserve, being retired actively as VT4s are delivered.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

Short answer: generally, Yes.
Long answer:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/t90-compared-with-al-khalid.375807/post-13682452
(Post #318)
And

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

Can AK2 become a version of VT4? Since AK-2 is not finalised yet, absorbing the best of VT-4 design into AK-2's final version, i.e. combining the best of the two into one, would be a smart move.

defence.pk

(Post 2669)

Defending forces generally have an advantage on the battlefield because they typically stay connected to their log lines and conduct their combat movmt under protection of their rear end artillery forces, anti tank elements and dominated airspace.

Indian armor will have to mobilize rapidly thus extending its log lines and risking exposure to hostile elements from land and air.



Does IA T-90s have APS or any form of protection from top attack elements?

No. No tank in either nation has an active hard-kill protection system like a trophy. Pakistan does however have the option to buy the GL6 from China and equip its tanks with it, but it’s not a priority yet, replacing older models is, those are costly systems.

The only tank with a basic APS system in the sub-continent is the VT4 with its LWRs, threat detection and automatic targeting/smoke deployment systems.

 

[Kompromat]

Speaking of GL6

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Top line: follow the Turkish technology, tactics and strategy for they're getting their "mojo" back by HIS PERMISIION after a lapse of a number of centuries.

Few stuffs that IMO should be incorporated into the modern armors:

• ASELSAN AKKOR or PULAT type active hard-kill protection.
• STM ALPAGUT or DELI type loitering kamikaze munitions.
• STM Kargu-type mini UAVs for 24/7 situational awareness within 3 to 5km range.
• Net centric environment with other land and aerial assets, especially tactical UAVs flying under the HALE UAVs.
• EW suits including anti-drone, mine etc. jammers.
• Being alone and Ahmak are the same. Korkut type AD systems with programmable munitions (ASELSAN ATOM) are a must in the formation to shoot down the enemy loitering munition like dumb ducks! If necessary AI based load sharing can be done to use the resident remote controlled machine guns in the tanks for firing ATOM type munitions in a net centric environment to collectively face loitering munitions in a distributed sensor fusion manner.
• Etc.

Bottom line: spare the Turkish asymmetric technologies, spoil your tanks. A loser does his best, but a winner fills his Herem with concubines from the beautiful Rajput or Byzantine princesses.

 

[Imran Khan]

please stick to abusing Pakistan army https://defence.pk/pdf/posts/13988154

another classic man tank lover spotted

 

[TheSolution]

Russian tanks have better metallurgy and design than Chinese tanks, definitely. But they doesn’t mean modern Chinese tanks are bad or anything. I would easily say the best Russian tanks are much better than the best Chinese tanks, but that’s not our problem, because india does not use the best Russian tanks, but we use the best Chinese tanks.

India has basically three tanks making up its entire armored Corps;

At the bottom are the stock T72Ms and M1s, those things are most definitely obsolete, just as the PAs Type 59s and 69s are obsolete. I’d rate both of these at similar levels, despite the Indian T72s being Second Gen MBTs, since PAs 59s and 69s do have some upgrades. Either way, they’re all death traps used out of necessity, and both nations have nearly a thousand of each in active or reserve roles.

The second is the modernized T72s, these fare a bit better, they are comparable to our Al-Zarrars. India has around 1000-1100 of these.

The last is the T90S, the only tank I’d consider not entirely obsolete in the Indian arsenal. They have 1168 of these, and at best they are comparable to PAs T80UDs. Inferior to AK, and nearly half a generation behind AK-1 (a full generation behind VT-4).

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is their ammo, no matter what tank, their entire 3000+ strong fleet uses obsolete Russian ammo from the 80s, while even the oldest of PAs tanks use modern Chinese and local ammo. Another issue would be the abysmal mobility of their tanks.

To put it shortly; yes, the Indian armored fleet is technologically far behind PAs, but that doesn’t mean the PA should celebrate just yet, The Indian armored fleet is much bigger, and it’s just one element of a combined arms warfare doctrine. PAs gunship helicopter fleet is nonexistent at the moment compared to Indias. PAs SP artillery fleet is much superior to Indias. But Indias Towed arty fleet is much superior to Pakistans. Pakistans UAV fleet is much superior to Indias. But IA has much better and more numerous ATGMs.

The list goes on and on, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, but if we are to talk about tank fleets and tech particularly, PA has a very significant edge in quality, just not in quantity.

India has:
1168 T90S (with 464 more on order but their delivery is uncertain due to the war).
1000-1100~ T72 (modernized)
1000+ T72Ms and M1s both in service and reserve.
124 Arjun MK1s (lmao) and 118 Arjun MK1As on order (still lmao).

Pakistan has:
Unknown number of VT4s, but I’d assume somewhere between 150-250, with several hundred more on order, these numbers are going up fast.
120 AK1s, 320 AKs.
300-310 T80UDs
290~ Type 85UGs
700-750 AZs
And several hundred Type 59s and 69s in active or reserve, being retired actively as VT4s are delivered.

Thank you for the detailed answer

 

[CLUMSY]

Not really. Its more of an employment issue. Though i am of the opinion western tanks are much superior.

 

[Azadkashmir]

so tejas are called flying somosa, now indian tank will be called kebab but we call it kawaab in pakistan.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?

No, it is always man behind the machine....

And Yes seeing Indian track record even 5th Gen tanks under Indian hand should be consider junk. Period.