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Breakdown of PTI era debt Rs17.8 trillion ($100B)

This may sound obvious, but the only way for Pakistan to break this cycle is to bring in investments (not more loans) that can result in profitable growth for the investors. If CPEC cannot bring investments (that are an equity risk) from China, then this should be from middle east or the western countries. Either this or Pakistan finds a mountain of resources (thinking of Reko Diq) that can be profitably extracted in the order of what middle eastern countries are blessed with.

Political uncertainty and an obstructive opposition is the last of what well wishers for Pakistan should hope for. :pop:

The best solution is keep taking loans as long as possible and then just default on all the loans.
 
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A good article with updated numbers on the external front.


PTI was worse than PMLN, all fluff and nothing of substance.
It would be prudent if someone could find out where did PTI spend $31B if the rest $26B were used for repayments.
 
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A good article with updated numbers on the external front.


PTI was worse than PMLN, all fluff and nothing of substance.
It would be prudent if someone could find out where did PTI spend $31B if the rest $26B were used for repayments.
Guess what we spend second most after servicing our debt? Hint: J-10,VT-4s, Type-54 etc aren't free.
Guess what we spend third most? Hint: shebaz gave it another 10% increase
 
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Not sure why you're crying. I just laid out some facts that countered your pseudo chawal POV on economics. I mean someone who has taken Econ 101 would know that what you wrote is absolute BS.
Well, I now get your problem, you have trouble reading and understanding things....anything more than 2 sentences is evidently not in your grasp to understand and hence all the childish nonsense by you all over the forums. And that's why I still wonder why @Horus @TaimiKhan @Slav Defence @Major Sam @Jango @jaibi @Irfan Baloch @Foxtrot Alpha @blain2 are still quiet. I mean a few of your posts are evidence enough of your conduct so why the leniency with you, I wonder. @Horus I had tagged you earlier too when the this admin banned me from the other thread and yet I have not seen any accountability. The reputation of the forum will continue to go down if seniors continue to turn a blind eye and elevate non-deserving and immature members to mods!
Agreed. But who told the PML-N to sign such horrible contracts that were completely in favor of the supplier. All the power projects started by PML-N during their era are cancerous, Pakistani people will be paying for these contracts for the next 40 years. For kickbacks and commission, they sold the country. I mean, the producers had an IRR of 20% on a freaking utility project. So the power generation projects you're talking about, they were purely there for commission/kicksbacks.

And please, lets not talk about industrial policy for PML-N as they had none. Industrial growth and exports reached an all time high during PTI tenure. While PML-N it was traders who were benefitting immediately as importing goods is far easier and more commission worthy then hardwork. Your grasp of Econ 101 is worse then that of a child in KG.
Have you ever been shopping for an item which is in extremely high demand and short supply? You would not have made the point if you ever had; when the previous regime negotiated for power, the country was kneeling with extreme power crisis to the point where a big portion of our industry, especially textile, had gone to Bangladesh. Pakistan was desperate for power and the situation was exploited by the sellers and despite all that the power contracts were neither poor nor unfair, some conditions could be hard but were still digestible and doable as long as Dar was working his magic. A growing GDP, eventual lowering of imports (once CPEC and power plant related items had been imported) and gradual increase in exports would have worked wonder......only if some continuity and support had been provided to the Government.

And I wonder if you have bothered to read a single one of those contracts yourself; it is ironic that you would trust the words of munafiq-e-aala and U-Turn rather than read the contracts yourself and point out where the cancerous condition really are! Just like LNG LTC from Qatar which have proven to be the cheapest and most reliable source of LNG as opposed to spot cargoes which PTI bought at 2-3 times; but to you that would be acceptable as an honest mistake and cheaper LTC by Haqqani were done for kick backs. Well, you know what, kick backs would most likely have been involved but if Pakistan got a better deal in the end then what are we complaining about exactly?

PML had no industrial policy? Seriously, is that how naive and ignorant you are? All policies from vehicle policy to FEZ to EEZ etc., were given by Dar. Every policy that PTI has worked on has roots from PML era; the difference being competent PML vs extremely incompetent and nonsense PTI which is proven by their change of Finance Ministers and Secretaries in their less than 4 year tenure! The plan was always to establish a base with Tax & Business benefits and cheap, abundant electricity for all FDI, especially export oriented industry, etc.!
Chalo more Chawalis. Your suggestion is, your take home pay is 2 Lakh rupees but please go borrow money from the bank and buy a Land Cruiser.
And again, you fail to grasp simple sentences. My suggestion is to manipulate the exchange rate to our advantage based on our situation. China did it for decades, Japan did it, Saudi Arabia and UAE have permanent pegs to the US; almost every country does that to the country's advantage.

And in your lingo, the plan would be that you take a loan to buy your own house and perhaps pay 120k out of the 200k pay for mortgage instead of paying 80k for rent. Admitted that you end up paying more every month but at the end you gain an asset!

A good article with updated numbers on the external front.


PTI was worse than PMLN, all fluff and nothing of substance.
It would be prudent if someone could find out where did PTI spend $31B if the rest $26B were used for repayments.
Well, there is a saying that an incompetent fool will spend Croesus's treasure because of incompetence. Need I say more?
 
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A good article with updated numbers on the external front.


PTI was worse than PMLN, all fluff and nothing of substance.
It would be prudent if someone could find out where did PTI spend $31B if the rest $26B were used for repayments.
While reading this article, it occurs to me that every regime change in Pakistan is like a CAG audit for them. The new government publishes the right context for the numbers that were advertised by previous administration. For the first time, the nearly $2.4 billion Naya Pakistan certificates are rightly called high interest foreign loans.. a new debt instrument. I've seen the same scheme celebrated in PDF as remittances from patriotic overseas Pakistanis, but that is not entirely true. On maturity, there is a good chance that this money has to be paid back. It is like FCNR account in India, but has a much higher interest rate of 7%. Luckily for India that the reserves for GOI at the time of FCNR maturity was large enough and Raghuram Rajan's gamble worked. For Pakistan, it remains to be seen how things will work out. :pop:
 
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While reading this article, it occurs to me that every regime change in Pakistan is like a CAG audit for them. The new government publishes the right context for the numbers that were advertised by previous administration. For the first time, the nearly $2.4 billion Naya Pakistan certificates are rightly called high interest foreign loans.. a new debt instrument. I've seen the same scheme celebrated in PDF as remittances from patriotic overseas Pakistanis, but that is not entirely true. On maturity, there is a good chance that this money has to be paid back. It is like FCNR account in India, but has a much higher interest rate of 7%. Luckily for India that the reserves for GOI at the time of FCNR maturity was large enough and Raghuram Rajan's gamble worked. For Pakistan, it remains to be seen how things will work out. :pop:
It is sad that people next door understand all this and yet a sizeable population of Pakistanis both inside and outside don't understand it at all.
 
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It is sad that people next door understand all this and yet a sizeable population of Pakistanis both inside and outside don't understand it at all.
This is actually not the first time that I've discussed about Naya Pakistan certificates here. Last time I realized that most people who cheer this scheme actually don't invest in it. I know because these overseas Pakistanis did not know that this certificate has two different interest rates for the same term.. one for PKR which is much higher. The second interest rate is in USD terms and it can be a maximum of 7%. Many people who post these type of articles here don't read the articles themselves :laugh:
 
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This is actually not the first time that I've discussed about Naya Pakistan certificates here. Last time I realized that most people who cheer this scheme actually don't invest in it. I know because these overseas Pakistanis did not know that this certificate has two different interest rates for the same term.. one for PKR which is much higher. The second interest rate is in USD terms and it can be a maximum of 7%. Many people who post these type of articles here don't read the articles themselves :laugh:
You are correct; most here are blindly supporting one party or the other and will continue to do so at the sake of the country too. Very sad state of affairs, especially the hate and intolerance that PTI has instilled in my fellow Pakistanis. This is just like Modi's Hindutwa, both will lead their respective countries to madness and chaos eventually.
 
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So PTI borrowed money interest free and no interest was paid by PTI on loans it acquired during it's almost 4 year tenure? And who will pay off the debt that PTI acquired.....Imran Khan or the people of Pakistan? Another thing that does not make any sense to a normal person is the BS around exchange rate and the fact that people are indeed so dumb that they are not able to comprehend a stronger local currency is beneficial when a large quantum of imports is required, which was required to establish an industrial base during PML Government!

The actual reason for increase in Public Debt under PTI is 1) Extreme Incompetency, 2) Nepotism/Favouritism/Personal interests, 3) Corruption!


PTI did not borrow interest free however there was minimal borrowing despite unprecedented global economic situation due to covid. This is a fact that Pakistan has a circular debt issue and every government would borrow more to pay off previous loans. However PTI has done the right thing by paying off much much more than it actually used.

For "strong" industrial base we need exports not imports. For "strong" industrial base PTI government has attracted investment by dozens of auto makers, they were all allowed tax free import of machinery and concessions to set up their plants. You don't improve you economy by incentivising imports. This is how local industries are killed. You incentivise local production which in turn ramps employment also.

A large quantum of brain is not required for this simple economic problem. I am a business major, I understand economics and what you have written would 200% bite you back.
 
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He is fooling people with fake figures. PTI spent 90% of foreign loan to payback old loans. Barely anything left for development. Unlike in Nawaz era when they only used to spent 50% foreign loan to payback old loan.

Now they are crying because things are bad unlike in 2013 when they toke over. IMF conditions will only get more difficult. BTW Nawaz went to IMF in 2013 despite not really needing it. He just wanted cheap loans so conditions were not that hard. But he left Pakistan near bankrupt and is yet to recover from that.
Pakistan was declared bankruptcy under Zardari government. To the extent, Pakistan became most unsafe nation in the worlds.

Loans were needed to stabilize and military operations which did work thus made pathway for Imran Khan who failed to convert stabilized economy into thriving economy. There are many factors at play but khan did fail big time.
 
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Well, I now get your problem, you have trouble reading and understanding things....anything more than 2 sentences is evidently not in your grasp to understand and hence all the childish nonsense by you all over the forums. And that's why I still wonder why @Horus @TaimiKhan @Slav Defence @Major Sam @Jango @jaibi @Irfan Baloch @Foxtrot Alpha @blain2 are still quiet. I mean a few of your posts are evidence enough of your conduct so why the leniency with you, I wonder. @Horus I had tagged you earlier too when the this admin banned me from the other thread and yet I have not seen any accountability. The reputation of the forum will continue to go down if seniors continue to turn a blind eye and elevate non-deserving and immature members to mods!
I don't know why you're triggered when called out on your Dar Chawal Economics. Why are you calling out the Mods and running 'Daddy Daddy come save me' just because others called you out on your flawed Economics. This is a Pro Research Forum, not a PML-N Corner meeting.


Have you ever been shopping for an item which is in extremely high demand and short supply? You would not have made the point if you ever had; when the previous regime negotiated for power, the country was kneeling with extreme power crisis to the point where a big portion of our industry, especially textile, had gone to Bangladesh. Pakistan was desperate for power and the situation was exploited by the sellers and despite all that the power contracts were neither poor nor unfair, some conditions could be hard but were still digestible and doable as long as Dar was working his magic. A growing GDP, eventual lowering of imports (once CPEC and power plant related items had been imported) and gradual increase in exports would have worked wonder......only if some continuity and support had been provided to the Government.
Dar was working his magic? I mean how am i supposed to argue with this typical Chawal argument because Dar is not even an Economic expert. He is an Accountant, Munshi who came in power because he was laundering money for Sharif Family.

PML0-N had plenty of options to improve its power crisis, but it went with the worst options with the Chinese because they paid commissions. Heck, these geniuses just focused on power generation and invested zero resources into power distribution. Thus, Pakistan today is sitting on a surplus of power with no way of distributing the power across the country. There were zero policies in place during PML-N era to increase exports, this was all done by PTI to boost exports which they actually did but then again, if you think Dar is a magician, that makes sense why you don't grasp the basics of Econ 101.

And I wonder if you have bothered to read a single one of those contracts yourself; it is ironic that you would trust the words of munafiq-e-aala and U-Turn rather than read the contracts yourself and point out where the cancerous condition really are! Just like LNG LTC from Qatar which have proven to be the cheapest and most reliable source of LNG as opposed to spot cargoes which PTI bought at 2-3 times; but to you that would be acceptable as an honest mistake and cheaper LTC by Haqqani were done for kick backs. Well, you know what, kick backs would most likely have been involved but if Pakistan got a better deal in the end then what are we complaining about exactly?
Mate, by Munafiq e Aala and U Turn Master you mean Shahbaz Sharif and Nawaz Sharif who used to call Zardari a 'Chor Daku' and now call him Daddy?

Funny thing is yes, i did read the contracts because i worked on the Sahiwal Powerplant. The worst contract you can ever sign, literally in favor of the Chinese with enormous kickbacks for Abid Sher Ali. Why do you think he is hiding out in the UK? Essentially, the Pakistani Awaan is debt bonded to that contract for the next 30 years and is paying enormous IRR to the Chinese and that too on USD and its a sovereign guarantee.
PML had no industrial policy? Seriously, is that how naive and ignorant you are? All policies from vehicle policy to FEZ to EEZ etc., were given by Dar. Every policy that PTI has worked on has roots from PML era; the difference being competent PML vs extremely incompetent and nonsense PTI which is proven by their change of Finance Ministers and Secretaries in their less than 4 year tenure! The plan was always to establish a base with Tax & Business benefits and cheap, abundant electricity for all FDI, especially export oriented industry, etc.!
That's why exports under PTI reached an all time high :-). PML-N had only one industrial policy, import as much as you can cause that's far easier to make commission on rather then focusing on exports.
And again, you fail to grasp simple sentences. My suggestion is to manipulate the exchange rate to our advantage based on our situation. China did it for decades, Japan did it, Saudi Arabia and UAE have permanent pegs to the US; almost every country does that to the country's advantage.
HAHAAHAAHAAHHAHAAHAH I mean, your Econ 101 and this chawal logic makes sense because you think Dar is an Economic Wizard HAHAA.

The countries you mentioned above have durable goods the world wants to buy because they have competitive advantage in producing them. Pakistan has no such thing, thus Pakistan cannot artificially peg their rate. Look at what happened to Lebanon, that is a more apt comparison.
And in your lingo, the plan would be that you take a loan to buy your own house and perhaps pay 120k out of the 200k pay for mortgage instead of paying 80k for rent. Admitted that you end up paying more every month but at the end you gain an asset!
Chalo, more Chawals. But then again, since you think Dar is an economic magician no wonder this logic is coming out of your mouth
 
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I don't know why you're triggered when called out on your Dar Chawal Economics. Why are you calling out the Mods and running 'Daddy Daddy come save me' just because others called you out on your flawed Economics. This is a Pro Research Forum, not a PML-N Corner meeting.
You are an indecent and immoral thing and it is very unfortunate that things like you are made mods who abuse their authority. Sad state of affairs really. I know it is beyond your comprehension why I was calling out Admin staff but I guess you will find out soon enough because with an attitude like yours, I am sure complains will pile up and the Admins will eventually have to take notice. I mean how much can they ignore, really.

Dar was working his magic? I mean how am i supposed to argue with this typical Chawal argument because Dar is not even an Economic expert. He is an Accountant, Munshi who came in power because he was laundering money for Sharif Family.

PML0-N had plenty of options to improve its power crisis, but it went with the worst options with the Chinese because they paid commissions. Heck, these geniuses just focused on power generation and invested zero resources into power distribution. Thus, Pakistan today is sitting on a surplus of power with no way of distributing the power across the country. There were zero policies in place during PML-N era to increase exports, this was all done by PTI to boost exports which they actually did but then again, if you think Dar is a magician, that makes sense why you don't grasp the basics of Econ 101.
You cannot argue on my points on merits and hence resort to usual bullshit!! PTI changed how many Finance Ministers and Secretaries in less than 4 years? Were they all being changed because of the stellar performance? I mean how can you even show your face with an argument like that? So much was PTI at failure with finance that they had to resort to a PPP Finance Minister......incidentally someone who could not run his own bank was given the country's finances because all of PTI had failed at it! And the nerve to speak about Finances!!!

PML had plenty of options, like what options? Chinese are the cheapest, not the best but damn cheap and lightening quick at building things. There would most definitely have been kickbacks but which country wouldn't offer kickbacks? PML could have gone to any one and still received kickbacks, is it not possible that the Chinese were the best option at the time? Poor effort on power distribution yes and the effort needed to be much better but they still outdid PTI in that department too so nothing to gloat about except the fact that Pakistan suffered on distribution under both regimes! As for the policy, which trade/export policy has been given by PTI which was not initiated by PML in some form? PTI simply benefited from the foundation which was made by PML with electricity, eez, trade & fdi policies etc. and all they did was inaugurate projects started under PML.

Mate, by Munafiq e Aala and U Turn Master you mean Shahbaz Sharif and Nawaz Sharif who used to call Zardari a 'Chor Daku' and now call him Daddy?

Funny thing is yes, i did read the contracts because i worked on the Sahiwal Powerplant. The worst contract you can ever sign, literally in favor of the Chinese with enormous kickbacks for Abid Sher Ali. Why do you think he is hiding out in the UK? Essentially, the Pakistani Awaan is debt bonded to that contract for the next 30 years and is paying enormous IRR to the Chinese and that too on USD and its a sovereign guarantee.
Ofcourse PML and PPP are all munafiq and thieves and looters and murderers and worse. At the cost of repetition, where in the hell have I ever defended them on those accusations???

Point out the specifics in those contracts, let's just focus on the Sahiwal Power Plant which is 100% financed by China to be transferred to Pakistan on BOT mechanism which means the Chinese will recover their investment + interest from electricity generated from the power plant; in simple terms, Pakistan saved Billions of USD upfront to pay the cost over many years eventually to acquire the Asset at the end of the contract. That's expensive????

That's why exports under PTI reached an all time high :-). PML-N had only one industrial policy, import as much as you can cause that's far easier to make commission on rather then focusing on exports.
It was PML which made all the EEZ's, gave the vehicle import policy and all other FDI policies which were merely renamed by PTI and for some they did not even bother to rename. PML laid the foundation which was used to grow the exports by about 30% (if we hit the 32 Billion USD mark). Sadly this also includes all the edibles (sugar, grain, flour etc.) which was exported for 2 reasons 1) to give export subsidies to the blue-eyed and 2) to inflate and show a higher export figure. These then had to be imported, again subsidies were given to the blue-eyed.

On the contrary, what finished products could the PML export when there was no electricity to produce goods? Or perhaps you think 16-18 hours of industrial load shedding is negligible.

HAHAAHAAHAAHHAHAAHAH I mean, your Econ 101 and this chawal logic makes sense because you think Dar is an Economic Wizard HAHAA.

The countries you mentioned above have durable goods the world wants to buy because they have competitive advantage in producing them. Pakistan has no such thing, thus Pakistan cannot artificially peg their rate. Look at what happened to Lebanon, that is a more apt comparison.

Chalo, more Chawals. But then again, since you think Dar is an economic magician no wonder this logic is coming out of your mouth
You speak as if all the countries mentioned just started doing it whereas factually they started doing it literally when they started developing. It's like you people argue just for the sake of argument, simply because otherwise the façade that you'll create of PTI would just crumble. As for the reference to Lebanon, perhaps you should read up the political factors of the country before even thinking about any comparison.

Chalo, more Chawals. But then again, since you think Dar is an economic magician no wonder this logic is coming out of your mouth
You are honestly unable to grasp even the simple logic:

And in your lingo, the plan would be that you take a loan to buy your own house and perhaps pay 120k out of the 200k pay for mortgage instead of paying 80k for rent. Admitted that you end up paying more every month but at the end you gain an asset!
 
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PTI did not borrow interest free however there was minimal borrowing despite unprecedented global economic situation due to covid. This is a fact that Pakistan has a circular debt issue and every government would borrow more to pay off previous loans. However PTI has done the right thing by paying off much much more than it actually used.

For "strong" industrial base we need exports not imports. For "strong" industrial base PTI government has attracted investment by dozens of auto makers, they were all allowed tax free import of machinery and concessions to set up their plants. You don't improve you economy by incentivising imports. This is how local industries are killed. You incentivise local production which in turn ramps employment also.

A large quantum of brain is not required for this simple economic problem. I am a business major, I understand economics and what you have written would 200% bite you back.
You call a debt of 49 Billion USD acquired over the course of some 45 months "minimal borrowing"? Are you being honest?

PTI paid off much more than it actually used? Again, being honest? And any idea where PTI literally invested the money which was not being used for debt servicing because they literally did nothing new, merely completed PML projects? Circular debt was how much 4 years ago from the 2.5 Trillion Rupees it is currently?

For strong industrial base we need exports? I wonder how you can even have an industrial base in the absence of power as was the case from 2013 to 2016/17? And since you demonstrate so strong an understanding, I am forced to explain that an industrial base is power+policy (EEZ, Tax incentives, targeted subsidies etc.) and all this was given by PML. Adding on, to setup the foundation and the base, you needed to import heavy machinery, parts, equipment, electronics etc., to setup power plants and assembly/production lines before you could produce even a pencil (pencil being a hypothetical item). It was Dar who gave you the Vehicle/Auto Policy under which all the auto makers are operating today. It was Dar who invited most of the new entrants to the auto market. It was all Dar, all the way. He incentivized local and export oriented industry and invited all the FDI. He set the ball rolling and if only he had continued, we could be manufacturing vehicles not still importing CKD/CBU etc.
 
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