Boeing Wants Washington To Clear F-15EX Pitch To India

[Smarana Mitra]

Thrust vectoring engines made it possible for Russians to bring Sukhoi family on par with American 4th generation aircraft in the aspect of maneuverability. This wasn't a requirement in American 4th generation aircraft due to relatively superior airframe designs. So this theory that Thurst Vectoring is an advantage, does not hold much water. Maneuverability does not depend upon engines exclusively.

Airframe of Su30 is in no way inferior. We can see how it can do extreme maneuver in air shows as a proof of its superior maneuverability. TVC is indeed a great advantage to Su30. In terms of airframe, Su27 without canards and TVS rivals F15. But with added Canards and TVC, Su30 is ahead of F15.

F-15EX is reportedly a generation ahead of existing F-15 variants in technologies and warfighting capabilities. This is unofficial alternative to generally perceived 5th generation aircraft. There are no fixed parameters for defining generations - flexible.

This is something like Super Sukhoi upgrade which India is trying to do when India develops its AESA radar. F15 or Su30 are very large planes with metal body and hence can never be 5th generation as 5th generation requires stealth. It can be 4.5 generation at best with AESA radar and advanced EW electronics upgrade.

Nevertheless, Pakistan should lobby against these type of offers from US to India. This is not good for strategic balance in the region, or WE will be forced to seek J-20 type solution, or more advanced types of nuclear delivery platforms. This isn't good for both countries in the long-term. Do not let foreign powers exploit us. WE both face ruin in the end.

India is only buying Rafale and that too will use Indian Kaveri engine and UTTAM AESA radar after the manufacturing begins in India as France refused M88 engine & RBE2 AESA TOT. Only airframe design will be obtained as TOT while every technology will be solely Indian. F15 is ruled out as India does not need it when it has Su30.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

India is not buying F15. India never asked for it. So, what is the debate about?


Su30 is better than F15. Su30 has much higher maneuverability which makes F15 weaker in comparison

F15 EX as of now has the best electronics capabilities around. Su30 mki is an F15 minus avionics. In BVR F15 is unmatchable.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Unfortunately.

F-16 Block 70/72 should be sought at minimum, and entire fleet upgraded to this standard in the long-term.

That would cost at least 3-5 billion considering weapons, spares etc and congress approval and neither both happening in Pak's favor in near future..

 

[Smarana Mitra]

How much of thrust vectoring will actually be used in BVR?

Superior service life, (likely higher) availability with reliable engines, better avionics and EW suite are tempting indeed. How much of these advantages will be offset by the Super Sukhoi upgrade remains to be seen.

In BVR scenarios the heat signature and signature of missile being launched will be detected and from far off and the planes will easily evade them using evasive maneuver. Here maneuvering helps significantly.

Secondly, unlike F15, Su30 has 2 pilots which make maneuvering and targeting much easier than F15.

if i was india i would acquire atleast 1 us origin mrca which would not only come with superior technology but also training that no other compatitor would offer.
Rafael was chosen to get pak of french market other wise super hornet would have been a better choice.

2030 decade is starting to look quite weak for pakistan in terms of technology acquired.
india has access to almost every high tech market in west while pak is struggling to acquire decent chinese export variants due to broke economy.

India has extremely rigorous training for IAF pilots. India does not need USA assistance to train pilots. Pakistan has got USA training while India has got USSR training and it makes no sense for India to give up the USSR training to go for USA training.

Huge AESA Radar, GaN based EW suite, Next Generation Cockpit, Best Passive sensors. All of these tied to a mission computer which is reportedly faster than one on F-35. On tope of that, can carry 22 AAMs. Su-30 is miles behind this beast.

All these things are easily upgraded. Super Sukhoi is exactly for this. Buying F15 for electronics suite & BVR makes no sense as India is not much behind in developing these. Indian software industry is top notch and hence there should be no problem in making EW suites & AESA radar codes. India is also developing longer range BVR missiles after developing Astra.

F15 EX as of now has the best electronics capabilities around. Su30 mki is an F15 minus avionics. In BVR F15 is unmatchable.

India is getting Super Sukhoi upgrade for this reason. Once it is there, Su30 will have similar electronics as F15. BVR capability simply depends on the BVR missiles available. India has developed Astra and will develop Astra Mk2 with dual stage and SFDR to get better BVR capability. Buying a plane for BVR missiles is absurd. When we talk of a plane, we must exclude external items like pods, BVR etc as they are accessories, not the plane itself.

 

[Philosopher]

Would it not be better for India to save up $$ and then go for some 5th gen fighters? Overburdening its airforce with so many different 4th gen fighters is a nightmare scenario in terms of maintenance etc.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

In BVR scenarios the heat signature and signature of missile being launched will be detected and from far off and the planes will easily evade them using evasive maneuver. Here maneuvering helps significantly.

Secondly, unlike F15, Su30 has 2 pilots which make maneuvering and targeting much easier than F15.


India has extremely rigorous training for IAF pilots. India does not need USA assistance to train pilots. Pakistan has got USA training while India has got USSR training and it makes no sense for India to give up the USSR training to go for USA training.


All these things are easily upgraded. Super Sukhoi is exactly for this. Buying F15 for electronics suite & BVR makes no sense as India is not much behind in developing these. Indian software industry is top notch and hence there should be no problem in making EW suites & AESA radar codes. India is also developing longer range BVR missiles after developing Astra.


India is getting Super Sukhoi upgrade for this reason. Once it is there, Su30 will have similar electronics as F15. BVR capability simply depends on the BVR missiles available. India has developed Astra and will develop Astra Mk2 with dual stage and SFDR to get better BVR capability. Buying a plane for BVR missiles is absurd. When we talk of a plane, we must exclude external items like pods, BVR etc as they are accessories, not the plane itself.

Russia has never been able to match it's electronics to US levels which is primarily led by private companies. Russia hasn't seen that level of participation by its own private companies and in a way hasn't been able to match US avionics for decades. US dominance has actually rubbed off on its NATO countries which too make significant systems.

Russia won't allow India to touch avionics of Su30 considering its their best selling aircraft. It's different from Russia of 90's where they were ready to sell almost anything. It's different now. Even if India were to do super Sukhoi upgrade I am not sure if India can match F15 avionics. Remember the US scientists have realtime war data to fine-tune their hardware and software over decades which Indians could only dream off.

Would it not be better for India to save up $$ and then go for some 5th gen fighters? Overburdening its airforce with so many different 4th gen fighters is a nightmare scenario in terms of maintenance etc.

True in a way. But the operating costs of 5th gen fighters are simply too much.

 

[Philosopher]

True in a way. But the operating costs of 5th gen fighters are simply too much.

Yes, but at most, you may have what? 2 type of 5th gen fighter rather then this numerous 4th gen planes. I would much rather spend my resources in procuring as much 5th planes as possible than buying multiple types of 4th gen.

 

[LeGenD]

Airframe of Su30 is in no way inferior. We can see how it can do extreme maneuver in air shows as a proof of its superior maneuverability. TVC is indeed a great advantage to Su30. In terms of airframe, Su27 without canards and TVS rivals F15. But with added Canards and TVC, Su30 is ahead of F15.

Are you alluding to meaningless Cobra maneuver?

American options (F-14 and above) can achieve 'sustained turning rates' without TVC engines - very important consideration for WVR confrontation situations.

FYI: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...thrust-vectoring-more-prevalent-than-american

I have never seen concrete evidence of Sukhoi being superior to American options in true combat-applicable aspects of maneuverability. Russian aircraft airframe designing capability is absolutely inferior to American. Just look at the airframe of Su-57 and compare it to that of F-35 and F-22 - big difference. Americans are also far ahead in the aspect of developing avionics.

This is something like Super Sukhoi upgrade which India is trying to do when India develops its AESA radar. F15 or Su30 are very large planes with metal body and hence can never be 5th generation as 5th generation requires stealth. It can be 4.5 generation at best with AESA radar and advanced EW electronics upgrade.

Older F-15E is already 4.5th generation.

F-15EX feature 5th generation sensor fusion architecture and technologies onboard minus VLO which is compensated with cutting-edge EA-18G type EW capabilities.

In short, F-15EX is fusion of EA-18G Growler and F-35 based warfighting concepts into a single platform in compliance with the emerging American MOSIAC warfare doctrine.

While F-35 will cruise above contested spaces without being noticed, F-15EX will rather bulldoze through the same.

India is only buying Rafale and that too will use Indian Kaveri engine and UTTAM AESA radar after the manufacturing begins in India as France refused M88 engine & RBE2 AESA TOT. Only airframe design will be obtained as TOT while every technology will be solely Indian. F15 is ruled out as India does not need it when it has Su30.

This is informative. Thank you.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Yes, but at most, you may have what? 2 type of 5th gen fighter rather then this numerous 4th gen planes. I would much rather spend my resources in procuring as much 5th planes as possible than buying multiple types of 4th gen.

At the end of the day india isn't buying any US jets for its AF. Probably for the Navy. But definitely not AF. It comes with a lots of string attached.
This is just news. F15 is a heavy fighter competing with likes of Su30 mki. Can't have 2 fighters in same category. India will simply go for more Rafales. Mmrca 2 will collapse.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Having too many different jets will make things worse. More Rafaels are the only logical options for India since it's already gone through the contender process and selected. Its also a carrier capable jet and makes sense for India's new aircraft carriers.

What Indian's are doing by having a re do of the competition is a pressure tactic on France to squeeze out a better deal. No way the F-15EX or F-18E would be cheaper to buy and integrate. If they really want something better than Rafael they should push US for F-35s.

Only possibility I see F-15EX being bought by India would be as a replacement fighter for SU-30s and they don't have the spare money to do that.

That India is having a tender at all for the 110 aircraft is a clear indication that they do not think the Rafale is their preferred choice. If it was clear cut, then there would be no tender.
Don’t forget that the Modi government has told the IAF that they know the capability of the Rafale, but India cannot afford to induct the Rafale in numbers.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

India has extremely rigorous training for IAF pilots. India does not need USA assistance to train pilots. Pakistan has got USA training while India has got USSR training and it makes no sense for India to give up the USSR training to go for USA training.

In all wars India has lost more fighters then PAF despite having much superior fleet. In recent stand off IAF could not cope with high stress and crashed a lot of planes in 2019. So no, IAF does not have rigorous training but they do have high tech fighters.
And also, when you buy a new platform your air force is also trained by that country. So if IAF accquires F-16 or F-15 then US trains your air force to adapt to that platform.

 

[Mav3rick]

So now the US has no problems with selling fighter Jets to a country which will have S-400? Or is it just limited to the stealth fighters?

 

[undercover JIX]

What happened to Teja something AMCA Stealth ????
current teja is already somewhat better than F16, why buying crappy tech when Indigenous super tech is available.

But anyway, go ahead India its your money, make in India....jai modi

 

[Lincoln]

India is not buying F15. India never asked for it. So, what is the debate about?


Su30 is better than F15. Su30 has much higher maneuverability which makes F15 weaker in comparison

If you believe that Sukhoi 30MKI is better than the F15EX, there is no fixing.

 

[cloud4000]

More than a match.

Let us hope that Indians will not consider this offer.

US is trying very hard to sell its fighters to India, even though the latter has shown little or no interest. What has been offered so far: F-16, F-18, F-21, F-35, etc? Given India's defense procurement process, just picking a fighter can take years. Still, India is keen on diversifying its defense procurement to many as countries as possible while, at the same time, build up its defense industry. If India does pick a US a fighter, it will demand local manufacturing and even ToT. Will US give it to India?