Betrayed, Arabized

[Vinod2070]

"Religious persecution' was brought up in support of other arguments of 'regressive cultural norms' pre-Islam that you sought to deny - they are part of the argument, and therefore the regressive cultural practices of South Asia that have used religion and distorted religion are in fact relevant to the argument since they support the position that it is not religion but man and cultural norms that are the issue.

It has been 'institutionalized' because of the concept of nation states and strong central governments/authorities that support particular interpretations of religion, it has not become institutionalized because of the faith, but because of those who choose to distort it to maintain power and ensure that their regressive cultural/social views continue to be dominant.

I used my example of religious intolerance in pre-Islam Arabia to support the argument of other regressive social practices that you sought to deny.

You are going tangential here. I am not even sure what your position is.

I don't think the "hardening" is due to the "concept of nation states" and obviously faith is used as a justification. No point denying the obvious.

Sure, just as I am sure not all Indians are 'Islam/Pakistan haters and baiters' like you, and no no retraction from me on what I said earlier - I have followed your posts for a long time now and your hatred for Islam/Pakistan is pretty obvious. Deny it all you want, but that is who you are. You were in fact banned the last time around for such rants, though you have displayed more self-control this time.

So predictable.

I have seen you longing for the Taliban to come back to Afghanistan and presumably restart their great deeds on the Afghan women and Hazaras and others. I have seen you wanting "another chance" on the hapless Bengalis who would want no part of that.

Doesn't mean I carry that baggage around in every thread.

I care a damn about how you want to label me. That is a convenient scapegoat to avoid the issues involved and you guys are pretty quick to use it. As for ban, it is easy for any "moderator" to do that. I would know that. You have been banned on another forum as well and I thought that was not correct and actually voiced my opinion there.

So instead of passing the fatwa on me, show me the example of "Islam/Arab baiting" on this thread or else there is only one honorable thing to do.

Muslim historians would argue it was during the first four Caliphates, and today's Turkey would be another good example.

I think the Shia may not agree with the "first four Caliphates" part and far too many of your own compatriots would disagree with Turkey being an "Islamic" country.

But societies and nations are run by people, not Angels, and people are inherently flawed and diverse, and therefore societies and States are always going to be flawed and never perfect. All people can do is continue to argue in favor of improvements and change in society and government, as flaws continue to be identified.

I would totally agree with that. A society is as good as the people it comprises of.

So why these dogmatic debates that one system is the only right one and all others are deserving of eternal hellfire just because they were born to another belief system?

The argument itself is flawed - it should not be a question of 'Secular State vs Theocratic State', but of what kinds of values we wish to see implemented in our State and society - equality, justice and freedom for all.

Getting caught up in the 'Secular vs theocratic' argument only hardens positions on both sides and prevents meaningful discussion and reform of the existing State structure, within the existing ideological boundaries.

No disputing this but this is exactly at the heart of the issue of this thread.

 

[Vinod2070]

So instead of passing the fatwa on me, show me the example of "Islam/Arab baiting" on this thread or else there is only one honorable thing to do.

Still waiting for the proof.

 

[muse]

The 'difference' is that most of us don't accept the current distortions of faith that are promoting intolerance and violence, and would like to see Islam's original message of peace, respect, justice and equality be implemented across the Muslim world.

In that case, perhaps studies that show religious radicalism to be "pop culture" in Pakistan, deserve dismissal, they are after all conducted under Dr. Siddiqa auspices -- and the explanation of the showering of the Assassin, Qadri, with flowers, is a expression, also of the same message of peace, respect, etc., etc.,?

The reality of arabization is Pakistan, is that while it is for those of us who seek to explore the issue as a cultural phenomenon and therefore with the criteria of good/bad, right/wrong, is perceived and reasoned, by significant numbers (just look at the thread) who confuse the issue as a religious issue, they argue, the prophet was a arab, Islam is Arabic, Quran is in arabic, Allah is an arab and that to suggest that Islamization is other than arabization is, folly.

And they have a point -- but if in the discussion, we do apply criteria or good/bad and right/wrong, we may approach a deeper and more meaningful discussion.

It is obvious, given the space such discussions are occupying in newspaper Op/Ed sections and blogs, that for may in Pakistan, this issue has real traction - indeed, even on this thread, after deletions of tens of pages, we are left with significant sections of opinion. This suggest that increasingly there seems to be a determination to contest public conscience by those who seek a more universal Islam and those for whom Islam and arab are synonymous.

What however, has this far gone unanswered is the lead articles author's question - the surrender of Pakistani culture to arabization, may well be worth it, but can even one, demonstrate how this is a worthy bargain?

 

[Safriz]

after reading most of the thraed...i still cannot comprehend the exact definiton of "arabization",

 

[VCheng]

after reading most of the thraed...i still cannot comprehend the exact definiton of "arabization",

Exhibit A: Khalid Sheikh Muhammad.

May be studying his metamorphosis into the monster he became would be educational to help you understand what "arabization" means in practice.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

This thread represents one of those rare insrances where the LESS you ask and the less you analyze (obcess over non-issues) the saner you are. The people who needlessly harp on and go gung-ho about this so-called arabization "phenomenon" are the same people who are at war with themselves when they struggle to get out of bed in the morning and can't decide on what colour socks and which rimmed hat to wear for the day.

Making issues out of non-issues and dogmatically clinging on to false notions that cause more confusion and leave more uncrossed Ts and undotted Is

 

[Ganga]

I am curious to know whether Pakistanis consider themselves South Asian or central Asian or even Arabs.I have lived in the ME for 17 years(parents still live there) and I can tell with conviction that these Arabs don't like Pakistanis.I have myself seen Pakistanis(particularly the Pathans) being treated badly at airports.Whenever a flight comes from Pakistan the number of police officers at security are increased.I recently had a short transit at Sharjah airport and the Pakistanis were treated badly by the police officers.The bottom line is that these Arabs consider themselves superior to all other Muslims .Does not matter whether you are from Pakistan or Indonesia.In that case what is the point by linking Pakistan with Arabia when they themselves consider others inferior.

 

[Ganga]

I rather distance myself from hindu indians, our enemies, who we have had 4 wars with and on-going long-lasting disputes with, the people who broke our country in 1971 and steals our waters in droughts and floods our rivers in mansoon and cries to international community to stop EU textile trade that can benefit millions of Pakistanis and I rather be closer with fellow Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Syria.

I would chose any Muslim (be it Indonesian, Turkish, Arab, African) over a hindu indian.
.

This kind of attitude will never bring peace to the region.Even the Kashmir issue can be resolved amicably but this hate filled attitude must go.You prefer linking yourself to Indonesian or African with whom you have nothing in common other than religion.It would be better if you link yourself with an Indian who speaks a similar language , has similar traditions and social structures etc.

 

[Ganga]

after reading most of the thraed...i still cannot comprehend the exact definiton of "arabization",

I guess it means bringing the Arab lifestyle(women wearing Burqa ,people talking in Arabic etc..) to an alien country.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ leave it mate. You need to know who to try to reason with. You will know after some time on this place.

 

[Ganga]

^^ leave it mate. You need to know who to try to reason with. You will know after some time on this place.

Oh I have been in this place long enough to know that some people never change no matter how much evidence you present before them.Just putting forward my point and experiences that's all.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

This kind of attitude will never bring peace to the region.Even the Kashmir issue can be resolved amicably but this hate filled attitude must go.You prefer linking yourself to Indonesian or African with whom you have nothing in common other than religion.It would be better if you link yourself with an Indian who speaks a similar language , has similar traditions and social structures etc.

Why?

British/French/Germans have a similar culture (English is a Germanic language, with French influence), yet these Europeans have been fighting each other for centuries. WW1 -AND- WW2. Chinese and Japanese also have a similar culture (the Japanese language is written with Chinese characters) but everyone knows how that turned out.

In fact, throughout history, nations have typically waged war against their close neighbours, i.e. countries which are likely to have a similar culture to them.

 

[Vinod2070]

One can always learn from past mistakes.

 

[Safriz]

Exhibit A: Khalid Sheikh Muhammad.

May be studying his metamorphosis into the monster he became would be educational to help you understand what "arabization" means in practice.

he was born in kuwait..... does that mean anything?

america intruded in the matters of MUSLIM countries for whatever reason.....waging wars on muslim majority countries and imposing sanctions and such..and all the terrorists are MUSLIMS..........
can the two FACTS be related?
ignoring this fact and blaming all reasons of terrorism on ISLAM and inventing new terminologies ARABIZAZATION is misleading.
Before the first gulf war in which america was involved...there was no terrorism...but ISLAM was there and people prayed in arabic and read Quran in arabic..but were not terrorists.
americas involvement in muslim countries done sokething tuat caused anti american sentiments and terrorism against america and her main allies.
if it was terrorism by muslims against infedals...why no islamic terrorism in Brazil..japan..Russia(chechnia is a territirial dispute)
south africa.and the list of INFIDAL countries goes on where no ISLAMIC terrorism happens.
proof enough that terrorism is mot due to islam or ARABIZATION (whatever that is).but reasonsl are political.

 

[muse]

I am curious to know whether Pakistanis consider themselves South Asian or central Asian or even Arabs.I have lived in the ME for 17 years(parents still live there) and I can tell with conviction that these Arabs don't like Pakistanis.I have myself seen Pakistanis(particularly the Pathans) being treated badly at airports.Whenever a flight comes from Pakistan the number of police officers at security are increased.I recently had a short transit at Sharjah airport and the Pakistanis were treated badly by the police officers.The bottom line is that these Arabs consider themselves superior to all other Muslims .Does not matter whether you are from Pakistan or Indonesia.In that case what is the point by linking Pakistan with Arabia when they themselves consider others inferior.

Ganga

Why just one Identity? That's exactly the problem with this Islam equals arab and Islamization therefore is Arabization, it is exactly this, the dogmatic, singular identity that is a problem -- See, if Pakistanis were to articulate that Pakistan, not just as a country in terms of borders and neighbors, but as a diverse society and culture with experience in multiple cultures, claims a South Asian, Central Asian, Iranian, Turkic, Arab and Western cultural heritage, who could object to this, it is after all, the truth about us.

Once, as Santro and the genius, Salman, among others has argued, that Quran is in arabic, that prophet was a arab and have then postulated that Islam itself is arab, well, that's where the reality of arabization and it's negative attributes become plain for all to see.