Babur 3 only a Stop-Gap, Pakistan needs real SLBM

[BHarwana]

You are comparing commercial fabrication with precision metal design and production. Secondly we dont have any supercomputers available for high end simulation. All high performace super computer require billions of dollars in investment. I would give you an example that we dont have a supercomputer which even has half of processing capacity currently being used by US or China or Japan or most of other countries capable of developing stealth.

We dont have any specialised training institutes/ education programmes/ very capable universities. I can count on my fingers number of universities which are capable to perform some good research otherwise rest are just teaching crap of ultimate propotions. Even if we have someone to do this kind of reasearch then what makes you think that any private player would invest billions of dollars in a limited sector? US spent over a trillion dollars on R&D OF f-35. Although data from chinese research in not available but even if we assume that they spent 500 billion dollars in R&D then that is out of our league. Like i said stop grasping at fantasies and rather focus on reality.

We also have areas we are good at like particle physics and nuclear physics mainly because of decades of exposure in that field. These areas were developed after spending billions in nuclear programme so i hope you get the point otherwise i have nothing further to add here.

The problem with your and my way of thinking is not super computers but the problem is that I am saying we are not jumping in the pond we have to and you are saying don't jump in the pond we will drown. Look if we don't jump in the pond we will never know that we will drown or swim through. When America designed F117 the computing power that was available to the world was less than the cheapest laptop available on the shelf now days so computing power is not the issue. Trust me I know computers. From Gilgit to Karachi there are so many intelligent individuals in this country that are more smarter than the best designer in the world. The very world "NO" is the biggest obstacle we have to over come. We just need to guide those individuals on the right path show them some future they will get if the are successful. Only not the most educated can make the difference sometimes the game changer comes from the very slumps of the society. The person who is responsible for the outcome of the world war 2 was a college dropout. Elbert Einstein was a college drop out but he had the passion and will to move in the direction. The only thing America provided him was "Shabash". Pakistan needs to give a "shabash" Pakistanis will do the job.

 

[The SC]

U might wanna lay off of those "wall hitting" emojis and stick to facts as that's the only way u can make a convincing argument.

First yes India is right next door but don't forget that India is huge. Let's assume that the stated range of Babur 3 is true(450 km...I'm not going to speculate that it has a longer range). If it's launched from a submarine, which will have to be a considerable distance away from the coast(let's say a 100 miles out) that gives Babur 3 a pentration of just 350km inland into India. This puts a considerable amount of targets out of reach and leaves all of Northern India unharmed.

The longest range a subsonic cruise missile can reach at the time is somewhere around 1000-1500km and not the 1500-2000km that u claim. To achieve that kind of a range that u mentioned with a cruise missile it would have to be a supersonic one.

As for the IR signature and RCS that u mentioned about a ballistic missile
So u don't think that cruise missiles have a comparable IR signature? I m not even going to bother explaining this further.

The reason why ABMs are more effective against conventional ballistic missiles is bcuz they follow a parabolic trajectory and once u have detected the position and speed of it u can calculate where it's going to be and intercept it.

There are two ways of detecting ballistic missiles.
1) radar detection. This method usually detects a missile after re-entry
2) satellite detection. This method can detect it when it's launched.

Now let's look at ABMs. So far ABMs aren't as effective as u made them in ur post. There's ways of defeating them. The most effective way however would be MIRV. Basically one missile carries multiple re-entry vehicles. So even in the presence of the most effective of ABMs it's highly likely that it wouldn't be able to intercept all of them and the target will be destroyed.

The goal of a second strike capability(from submarines) is to be able to destroy the enemy completely after the first strike capability(from land) has been neutralized. This complete destruction cannot be achieved with cruise missiles. Ballistic missiles are required.

America’s current air-launched cruise missiles consist of AGM-86Bs that have a range of 1,500 miles ( 2414 km) and are self-guided

 

[war&peace]

Gradually Pakistan have to develop advance SLCM with range of 4000km, because it will be safer for sub to launch it 2000km away from Indian coast to avoid Indian ASW platforms specially P-8I because they can reach search area that far quickly and can stay there for while and are potent threat, and to launch SLCMs, SSGN will be good to have, SSBN with 6500km BM (MIRV/MaRV or HGV payload) should be next step if possible, it will make things difficult for Indian BMD.

Developing a SLCM with 4000 km of range is really difficult..for that you need excellent engine and the missile will be quite a bit longer and larger in diameter so I think an optimal SLCM will be with range between 1500 to 2500 km.
But with SLBM longer ranges are possible but will be limited by the capacity of the carrying platform i.e. SSBN.

 

[BHarwana]

If we only want to increase range that can be done easily just use solid state rocket in cruise missile like Iran but it is difficult with turbofan engine we need more research in the area.

 

[Cookie Monster]

America’s current air-launched cruise missiles consist of AGM-86Bs that have a range of 1,500 miles ( 2414 km) and are self-guided

Is there any info about at what speed the aircraft must be going to impart that speed on to the missile? Or can it be launched without any imparted speed and achieve that same range...

The cruise missile discussion was in context of SLCMs which have to gain speed all on their own as compared to ALCMs. I would be interested to find out how and if that makes a difference in the range that cruise missile can achieve. I tried looking it up but found nothing.

 

[BHarwana]

Is there any info about at what speed the aircraft must be going to impart that speed on to the missile? Or can it be launched without any imparted speed and achieve that same range...

The cruise missile discussion was in context of SLCMs which have to gain speed all on their own as compared to ALCMs. I would be interested to find out how and if that makes a difference in the range that cruise missile can achieve. I tried looking it up but found nothing.

Please explain your question a bit more, I have info will provide you.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Please explain your question a bit more, I have info will provide you.

ALCMs when launched from a jet are already travelling at a speed the jet is travelling at and then when ignited, must gain even more speed on their own by burning fuel. SLCMs on the other hand are not launched at such a speed. They gain all their speed on their own by burning their fuel. So in a sense ALCMs get an additional boost. I was just wondering if that gives ALCMs greater range or not.

 

[The SC]

Is there any info about at what speed the aircraft must be going to impart that speed on to the missile? Or can it be launched without any imparted speed and achieve that same range...

The cruise missile discussion was in context of SLCMs which have to gain speed all on their own as compared to ALCMs. I would be interested to find out how and if that makes a difference in the range that cruise missile can achieve. I tried looking it up but found nothing.

Part of the Kalibr family, however, is intended solely for “domestic consumption” (known as 3M14, 3M54, and 3M541) and their ranges are many times greater (some sources use the “E” designation for missiles not intended for export, which is an obvious mistake). Depending on the source, their range is either 2,600 km or 1,500 km; some hypothesize that the longer range is associated with missiles equipped with nuclear warheads while conventionally armed Kalibr SLCMs have the 1,500 or somewhat greater range.



Kalibr 3M-54E1


All these missiles are subsonic with one important exception: the last stage of the three-stage 3M54 can accelerate to three times the speed of sound 20-40 km before the target (3M541 is a shorter, two-stage subsonic missile that has a more powerful warhead). Acceleration helps penetrate ship defenses and builds inertia to penetrate the body of the target ship. Although all these cruise missiles were initially developed as anti-ship (including basing on submarines, surface ships, and on shore for coastal defense), they have recently also been given capability against targets on land.

Kalibr missiles are designated as high-precision and can travel a complex trajectory with up to 15 turns along the path. For example, if the target ship is on the other side of an island, the missile(s) will fly around that island to reach it.

Element of Conventional Deterrence

Kalibr missiles are reported to have dual (nuclear and conventional) capability. The Russian Navy has always stubbornly insisted that it needs nuclear anti-ship missiles to balance the overwhelming power of US Navy and there is no reason to believe it will completely abandon nuclear capability

 

[BHarwana]

ALCMs when launched from a jet are already travelling at a speed the jet is travelling at and then when ignited, must gain even more speed on their own by burning fuel. SLCMs on the other hand are not launched at such a speed. They gain all their speed on their own by burning their fuel. So in a sense ALCMs get an additional boost. I was just wondering if that gives ALCMs greater range or not.

It first of all depends on which family of cruise missiles you are talking about. If you are talking about of Pakistani cruise missiles, the Pakistani cruise missiles use Turbo fan engines. These engines are able to gain speed from 0 to maximum on their own. So no matter from where you launch them there is no difference in range. The GLCM or SLCM attain the required speed in a matter of seconds so the advantage of ALCM having intial speed is very less and thus the range difference is very small.
If on the other hand the missile is using Ramjet or Scramjet engines the initial launch speed can make the difference as with ALCM there will be no need of booster to attain initial speed and in case of SLCM and GLCM there will be a need of booster for Ramjet engines or Scramjet engines.

Hope this answers your question. If you need any more info please feel free to ask.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Part of the Kalibr family, however, is intended solely for “domestic consumption” (known as 3M14, 3M54, and 3M541) and their ranges are many times greater (some sources use the “E” designation for missiles not intended for export, which is an obvious mistake). Depending on the source, their range is either 2,600 km or 1,500 km; some hypothesize that the longer range is associated with missiles equipped with nuclear warheads while conventionally armed Kalibr SLCMs have the 1,500 or somewhat greater range.



Kalibr 3M-54E1


All these missiles are subsonic with one important exception: the last stage of the three-stage 3M54 can accelerate to three times the speed of sound 20-40 km before the target (3M541 is a shorter, two-stage subsonic missile that has a more powerful warhead). Acceleration helps penetrate ship defenses and builds inertia to penetrate the body of the target ship. Although all these cruise missiles were initially developed as anti-ship (including basing on submarines, surface ships, and on shore for coastal defense), they have recently also been given capability against targets on land.

Kalibr missiles are designated as high-precision and can travel a complex trajectory with up to 15 turns along the path. For example, if the target ship is on the other side of an island, the missile(s) will fly around that island to reach it.

Element of Conventional Deterrence

Kalibr missiles are reported to have dual (nuclear and conventional) capability. The Russian Navy has always stubbornly insisted that it needs nuclear anti-ship missiles to balance the overwhelming power of US Navy and there is no reason to believe it will completely abandon nuclear capability

I stand corrected. My earlier statement was that current SLCMs have roughly a range of 1000-1500km but u have shown me that there exists one with a greater range. Thanks for that

However my main point that I was trying to make was for SLBMs. I m not saying that our current capability with Babur 3 isn't good or that it shouldn't be improved upon. I was simply stating that next step should be acquiring SLBM capability preferably with MIRV. So that all corners of India are within reach for a second strike. This was in response to PakistaniPower guy who was insisting that we must only go the route of cruise missiles.

In order to reach any part of India with a submarine(that will be a good distance out into the ocean away from Indian mainland) launched missile would require quite a lot of range, more than that 2600km mentioned above. Moreover cruise missiles generally carry lesser payload as compared to ballistic missiles. This is why I think that the next logical step in improving second strike capability would be to go the SLBM route.

 

[BHarwana]

I stand corrected. My earlier statement was that current SLCMs have roughly a range of 1000-1500km but u have shown me that there exists one with a greater range. Thanks for that

However my main point that I was trying to make was for SLBMs. I m not saying that our current capability with Babur 3 isn't good or that it shouldn't be improved upon. I was simply stating that next step should be acquiring SLBM capability preferably with MIRV. So that all corners of India are within reach for a second strike. This was in response to PakistaniPower guy who was insisting that we must only go the route of cruise missiles.

This SLCM uses two types of propulsions solid state and turbojet. Irani has 2000 to 3000 km range and only uses solid state. with using solid state the missile attains more range but loses other advantages of stealth.

 

[The SC]

I stand corrected. My earlier statement was that current SLCMs have roughly a range of 1000-1500km but u have shown me that there exists one with a greater range. Thanks for that

However my main point that I was trying to make was for SLBMs. I m not saying that our current capability with Babur 3 isn't good or that it shouldn't be improved upon. I was simply stating that next step should be acquiring SLBM capability preferably with MIRV. So that all corners of India are within reach for a second strike. This was in response to PakistaniPower guy who was insisting that we must only go the route of cruise missiles.

In order to reach any part of India with a submarine(that will be a good distance out into the ocean away from Indian mainland) launched missile would require quite a lot of range, more than that 2600km mentioned above. Moreover cruise missiles generally carry lesser payload as compared to ballistic missiles. This is why I think that the next logical step in improving second strike capability would be to go the SLBM route.

Adding the SLBM will make it a full second strike capability, with the SLCM it is a credible second strike deterrent capability

 

[MilSpec]

If the PN begins on building its own missile similar to the Indian K-15 (which is based on the brahmo) it doesnt have to look to far then the current Chinese CX-1 missile. Most of the design is there. Supersonic Cruise missile, on top of a solid fueled booster.

K15 is based on Brahmos? What gave it away, the pointy tip or the fire from the rear end.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Adding the SLBM will make it a full second strike capability, with the SLCM it is a credible second strike deterrent capability

Exactly that was my point that we need to have SLBMs in addition to SLCMs in order to cover every corner in the event of a second strike.

 

[BHarwana]

If the PN begins on building its own missile similar to the Indian K-15 (which is based on the brahmo) it doesnt have to look to far then the current Chinese CX-1 missile. Most of the design is there. Supersonic Cruise missile, on top of a solid fueled booster.

K15 is based on Brahmos? What gave it away, the pointy tip or the fire from the rear end.

K15 is not based on Brahmos. Brahmos uses jet engine, K15 uses solid state rocket for the first stage at least so they are diffirent

Exactly that was my point that we need to have SLBMs in addition to SLCMs in order to cover every corner in the event of a second strike.

Slcm which was tested was from A90b sub that is why the range was less. When we will Chinese subs the range is way more high. The current Indian slbm K 15 has a nuclear warhead range of 750 km only.

Sorry I am wrong. K 15 is based on Brahmos