Featured Analyzing misconceptions about Pakistan Armed Forces - Objectively

[Ghost 125]

They are morally corrupt getting ready to get the money lauderer nawaz sharif back in the country to be a PM again. Enough said

wow thats what we call a sweeping statement, no logic, no evidence just a good old pure sweeping statement...

 

[ejaz007]

Actually the solution to the problem is very simple. Military should do what it is supposed to do defend the country and leave the politics to the civilians. The civilians should do what they are supposed to do improve legislation and economy.

The last paragraph of the first post of the thread is the actual problem. If people elect one party or the other why should military have a problem with it. The party shall go back to the people after five years and people shall decide about the party.

 

[CriticalThought]

I have read the messages on this thread with keen interest. If I were to summarize the discussion so far, civilians have a perception of military generals as corrupt, behind the times, and not very bright. Whereas, the professionals feel they are already doing a lot, and any inefficiencies can be attributed to the quality of the intake.

Let us all agree on one thing: the institution should be greater than the sum of its parts. This means, even if a large volume of substandard cadets are recruited, the institution should raise them up to the required level, no matter what their backgrounds.

With this understanding, let me present what I feel is the true problem with Pakistan army: mediocrity at the highest levels, a psychological capitulation towards scientifically and technologically advanced nations, and a preference for worldly and creature comforts, which makes war with a capable adversary - the raison d'etre for their very existence - an unpalatable option. The Pakistani army is a force that has been psychologically defeated at the highest ranks, and this is known to our enemies: America, West in general, and India. Many of our generals are boot-lickers of foreign masters, and there exists a blatant and shameless conflict of interest, wherein their children are studying or living abroad while they are serving, and they themselves relocate to Western countries after their tenure is finished. There is a system in place to increase the chances of boot lickers rising to the top. And the intentions of the West are well known in this regard, with legislation to control appointments down to the brigadier level having been tabled.

Unfortunately, with the rise of both Bajwa and Khan to the top, the Western wet dream has come true. And they are doing their very best to hold on to this dream, the extension of Bajwa being case in point. They will go to any extent to now hold on their wet dream, and this means bringing down the entire system of government if the need arises. The current political rifts and standstill are an artificially created excuse, and the bastards across the entire political spectrum are responsible for furthering this Western agenda for the eventual change to bring the very system of governance more in line with Western likings.

In this regard, we need a resurgence of Islamic nationalism at the very top. We need sincere men of integrity and honor to take on this onslaught. And the first step is to force Bajwa to retire. Mark my words, if the West doesn't see a better alternative, Bajwa is here to stay until his death. The army needs to pull a Kayani on him. It is deplorable that after Pervaiz Musharraf no one in the army said, 'Never again!'. Or if they did, the controls in place have clearly failed. Gen Raheel Sharif is one of the finest products of the system. He clearly had a very strong belief in the system. And the system has clearly failed him. There have been rumors that he gave strong suggestions to Nawaz Sharif about whom to appoint next. But the bastard Nawaz would of course listen to his masters.

In any case, the problems need to be fixed from the top. Now that we know our enemies want a stable and favorable leadership at the top, we can be equally shameless and demand that a strong Islamic Nationalist should come to the top, and then stay at the top to systematically fix the system.

Once the leadership has been sorted, we need to increase the technical and scientifc knowledge at the command level. This is an effective, and direct counter to psychological subservience. You capitulate when you cannot fight, and you cannot fight what you don't understand. For our generals, modern technology wielded by America, and the West in general, is a wonderous and opaque mystery which they have no hopes of cracking. This is a direct result of weak foundations in science and technology. The reader should note that this subservience is a personal attribute and will not be countered by having research programs within the country. There is no question about the need and advantages of research, but the personal demons of our generals will not be exorcise by the light of knowledge in their surroundings. The darkness in their own minds needs to be countered with the enlightenment of science and logic. Once they understand science and engineering, they will see the benefits of research and indigenization.

With a strong Islamic, nationalist, and enlightened leadership, our Army needs to through a relentless pursuit of self-improvement, the end goal being the ability to not just win over India, but to be able to take on and subdue the biggest worldly superpowers.

 

[ps3linux]

Actually the solution to the problem is very simple. Military should do what it is supposed to do defend the country and leave the politics to the civilians. The civilians should do what they are supposed to do improve legislation and economy.

The last paragraph of the first post of the thread is the actual problem. If people elect one party or the other why should military have a problem with it. The party shall go back to the people after five years and people shall decide about the party.

Under ideal circumstances I would agree with you that military should focus on defending the country while law makers defend the country from other threats.

It is a chicken and egg discussion we can keep going in circles, but law makers right from day 1 were thugs and land grabbers what I call "Invader psychology" loot here and transfer the money abroad.

We can debate on the topic but lets for a moment assume military take a portion of the budget and interferes in civilian matters, just for a moment, but did military force them not to set up hospitals, improve education system, police, penal code, judicial system, qabza group, or improve water supply, garbage pick up, is the military forcing them to perform in the pathetic way we see everyday in the parliament.

I live in Rawalpindi cantt despite paying tax in millions I don't get the darned water supply because the civilian who had to make sure that I get the water as per the social contract, have always been busy finding ways to commit corruption.

It is easier to blame the forces but a difficult pill to digest that we the civilian or our law makers have always failed to deliver upon the social contract between a state and its people. It is us who elect thugs as our representative, for a moment I would accept in case of MPA/MNA they are chosen by the parties, well how about councilors we elect those who would help us in Than/kutchery instead of an educated person.

I find it funny when people quote the example of west or Turkey, they didn't get here like us. There first the civilians delivered even erdogan started as a mayor of sh*thole of a city, delivered there and then he started to rise. Its just that its easier to blame the forces but of course dictators like yahya, zia and musharraf did provide the foundation of those curses.

I have already mentioned that the criteria for elevation to flag rank requires serious rework, so that people like zia, beg, musharraf, kiani never rise to flag ranks.

 

[VCheng]

Once we make a house and a window is found to be out of place we don’t tear down the whole house, we change the area which requires improvement, I know Armed forces have grey areas but we cannot go out and change the entire setup. History is full of incidents where a set order was disturbed and the results were anything but good.

I enjoyed reading the OP in its entirety. Thank you for your thoughts. If I may make a few comments:

When people criticize or praise the armed forces, they conflate two different things: the rank-and-file and the leadership. This is an important distinction since most of the former are indeed commendable, while many of the latter are not. Indeed, the tactic usually favored is to hide valid criticisms of the leadership behind the selfless courage and devotion to duty of the rank-and-file.

Having observed the above, I think it is important to keep in mind that nearly three quarters of a century after independence, the nature of the country, and the relative roles of its institutions are cast firmly, and one must look beyond it after accepting the roles played by the military, regardless of whether one thinks it is right or wrong.

It is what it is, to quote a recently popular phrase.

Lastly, let me end by saying that the reason for any country to exist is for its people, no matter how they are governed. Any country that does not serve its people eventually succumbs to internal and/or external forces, no matter how noble or wonderful any of its institutions think they might be in their own minds.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Read "Quetta Experience" a lot on military brats and background will become clear. Military brats are not in majority during batch induction that is what the book says which is based upon an unbiased, to some extent, study spanning couple of decades.

As far as unfair advantage, well then we should equate that unfair advantage theory with another scenario, a doctors children usually end up becoming doctors! They too have an unfair advantage since they were mentally ingrained and naturally tilted towards becoming doctors when they were growing up! "Civilians" has a disadvantage here. Furthermore, their parents colleagues are professors/administrators in med schools and in med departments so their kids get unfair advantage in all stages of their quest to become doctors. Same is the case with engineers. They have a huge advantage whereby their parent(s) are good at science subjects and tend to tutor their wards at home and solidify their kids science subjects. The other advantages are the same as described in the Doctor scenario.

Now let us talk about government servants. Yes their kids have an innate advantage due to their parent being in the govt. Departmental opening hiring, provincial service commission papers, interview selection etc. I don't see anyone shouting that ziyadtee hogaee civilains k saath!!! Manipulation of age, domicile, degrees is rampant in civilian side.

On the contrary, I have had subordinates who achieved flag ranks and their kids failed in ISSB!! I have a relative who was a general whose son failed twice in ISSB.

Yes there are exceptions, but they remain exceptions. If this was no the case, PA would have ceased to be a fighting force long time back if we compare it with the rot in the civil service since 1972!!!

 

[ejaz007]

Under ideal circumstances I would agree with you that military should focus on defending the country while law makers defend the country from other threats.

It is a chicken and egg discussion we can keep going in circles, but law makers right from day 1 were thugs and land grabbers what I call "Invader psychology" loot here and transfer the money abroad.

We can debate on the topic but lets for a moment assume military take a portion of the budget and interferes in civilian matters, just for a moment, but did military force them not to set up hospitals, improve education system, police, penal code, judicial system, qabza group, or improve water supply, garbage pick up, is the military forcing them to perform in the pathetic way we see everyday in the parliament.

I live in Rawalpindi cantt despite paying tax in millions I don't get the darned water supply because the civilian who had to make sure that I get the water as per the social contract, have always been busy finding ways to commit corruption.

It is easier to blame the forces but a difficult pill to digest that we the civilian or our law makers have always failed to deliver upon the social contract between a state and its people. It is us who elect thugs as our representative, for a moment I would accept in case of MPA/MNA they are chosen by the parties, well how about councilors we elect those who would help us in Than/kutchery instead of an educated person.

I find it funny when people quote the example of west or Turkey, they didn't get here like us. There first the civilians delivered even erdogan started as a mayor of sh*thole of a city, delivered there and then he started to rise. Its just that its easier to blame the forces but of course dictators like yahya, zia and musharraf did provide the foundation of those curses.

I have already mentioned that the criteria for elevation to flag rank requires serious rework, so that people like zia, beg, musharraf, kiani never rise to flag ranks.

Your logic is flawed.

The highest budget allocation is to the military. Then whatever is left is divided into a different heads. Remaining budget allocation is for the entire country and federation also has to share a portion of it with provinces. Running a country with whatever is left is not an easy task. Progress takes time and if you compare the situation today with say situation that was some 20 years ago you shall feel the difference.

Regarding corruption the topic has been discussed in details on this very forum about corruption of both civilian and military personnel.

Regarding progress in Rawalpindi cantonment board. I am sure you have seen the houses of the retired and serving military personnel in the area. Try to find out how many of them pay property tax. You shall be surprised. The board is headed by a serving brigadier. Do you think a brigadier can send a notice to a retired or serving general to pay property tax.

 

[ps3linux]

In my view, a son following his father's footsteps and wanting to join the Military is in fact Amazing and highly commendable. There is nothing wrong with it; in FACT this is a Historical fact that throughout History, you will find great families with great Military traditions. And it is no different in Pakistan. In my view, this tradition of sons and daughter following their fathers and uncles foot steps and wanting to join the Military is SINGLE BIGGEST RETAINER OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. The Knowledge and Experience, good or bad, a fathers gains for many decades while working for the Military, he very willingly wants to pass it onto to his Son. When sons and daughters are coached by their retired fathers like this, it actually greatly helps these individuals to further develop themselves along with the Military training.

And when you ALSO inject new people with no family background in Military, you also ensure that the Military taps into the new and fresh ideas these new people might bring to the organisation. Overall, I believe the Military has got is right. I will write more on the training and education later.

Sir, there are pros and cons to both son following the tradition and introduction of new blood, what I find strange is people don't talk about what happens in other walks of life when father arm twists others to induct his incompetent son. I remember a joke one I had very good relations with Pak China Investment company, so this one time I went to meet the deputy CEO and the new CEO, at the reception I met this young chap who was extremely arrogant and lacked basic ethics of discussion.

So the meeting went well and we agreed upon an action plan to be finalized next week. Come next week when I call up the people for new appointment I was informed that CEO has been transferred (within a week) and new CEO is expected to join soon.

So I asked one of my friends what happened CEO are not rotated within a week, and he told me that "did you meet that arrogant piece of s***" on reception last week I said yes. He was the nephew of Secretary finance who had completed his graduation from some university in China, had very poor grades but upon arm twisting of "dear Uncle" was appointed in the treasury. When the new CEO arrived he wanted to fix the treasury first thus interviewed every one including "dear nephew" found him incompetent for every department and absolutely out of question for treasury. so the CEO made him receptionist, he complained to the Uncle dear and rest is known.

Now this uncle was secretary finance during musharraf era, peoples part era and was cozy with Munshi Dollar. These days he writes articles in English newspapers and emphasis is on ethics and corruption strange ain't it.

I enjoyed reading the OP in its entirety. Thank you for your thoughts. If I may make a few comments:

When people criticize or praise the armed forces, they conflate two different things: the rank-and-file and the leadership. This is an important distinction since most of the former are indeed commendable, while many of the latter are not. Indeed, the tactic usually favored is to hide valid criticisms of the leadership behind the selfless courage and devotion to duty of the rank-and-file.

Having observed the above, I think it is important to keep in mind that nearly three quarters of a century after independence, the nature of the country, and the relative roles of its institutions are cast firmly, and one must look beyond it after accepting the roles played by the military, regardless of whether one thinks it is right or wrong.

It is what it is, to quote a recently popular phrase.

Lastly, let me end by saying that the reason for any country to exist is for its people, no matter how they are governed. Any country that does not serve its people eventually succumbs to internal and/or external forces, no matter how noble or wonderful any of its institutions think they might be in their own minds.

Superb as usual unless one is stupid and totally biased only then one would mock rank&File and junior officers laying down their lives in the line of duty.

As for flag rank I have already made my point if Zia, Beg, Musharraf, KInani and a few others that come to mind made it to flag rank despite the fact that everything about them was known to the institution, then there is something not right about the elevation criteria to flag rank.

Civilian Govts in Pakistan and dictators all failed to fulfill their end of the bargain as included in the social contract. I understand that people are tax evaders and corrupt generally but those who pay full taxes and are not corrupt has the state delivered on its obligation? May be just may be I am seeing a ray of hope when I saw the features of the sehat insaaf card for KPK last week.

Read "Quetta Experience" a lot on military brats and background will become clear. Military brats are not in majority during batch induction that is what the book says which is based upon an unbiased, to some extent, study spanning couple of decades.

As far as unfair advantage, well then we should equate that unfair advantage theory with another scenario, a doctors children usually end up becoming doctors! They too have an unfair advantage since they were mentally ingrained and naturally tilted towards becoming doctors when they were growing up! "Civilians" has a disadvantage here. Furthermore, their parents colleagues are professors/administrators in med schools and in med departments so their kids get unfair advantage in all stages of their quest to become doctors. Same is the case with engineers. They have a huge advantage whereby their parent(s) are good at science subjects and tend to tutor their wards at home and solidify their kids science subjects. The other advantages are the same as described in the Doctor scenario.

Now let us talk about government servants. Yes their kids have an innate advantage due to their parent being in the govt. Departmental opening hiring, provincial service commission papers, interview selection etc. I don't see anyone shouting that ziyadtee hogaee civilains k saath!!! Manipulation of age, domicile, degrees is rampant in civilian side.

On the contrary, I have had subordinates who achieved flag ranks and their kids failed in ISSB!! I have a relative who was a general whose son failed twice in ISSB.

Yes there are exceptions, but they remain exceptions. If this was no the case, PA would have ceased to be a fighting force long time back if we compare it with the rot in the civil service since 1972!!!

Sir jee, I have already highlighted the point I do not deny a certain degree of nepotism in forces selection (ISSB) but how much merit could be made flexible is in fractions. From what I remember there are 6 criteria on which an officer candidate is evaluated (I may be wrong but thats what I remember from long time ago) an 85 could be made 90 or 80 could be made 90 but no way a 50 could be made 90 and that is why many of fauji children get rejected in ISSB every year.

But when it comes to civilian side phew, I have already shared the kind of jokes which happen. A good friend work in IESCO and according to him there are at-least a dozen people whom he has never seen in the office and yet all of them draw salaries. most of them are either relatives of some bureaucrat or their domestic servants.

Challenge for detractors is to find a ghost employee in Pakistan Armed Forces.

Pakistan in current state of mess is less due to forces and more due to incompetence of civilian side of the society including incompetent and corrupt bureaucracy and thugs law makers.

 

[PradoTLC]

Well i got rejected twice while my father was serving armed forces and there were many such cases in my social circle on other hand many of my school fellows with civilian background passed. What you're saying ain't true. A civilian studying in army institution or is somehow related to army or has social circle with close link to army has higher chance of applying for army compare to rest.

correct if i recall former ACM Sohail Aman stated that is own son failed ISSB tests twice...

 

[PradoTLC]

View attachment 663332
@SQ8 , @blain2 , @PanzerKiel , @ARMalik , @R Wing , @PakFactor , @The Eagle , @waz

Mods would please appreciate if this thread is spared from junk.

Often I come across terms like “Low IQed”, “Parrots – tottay” , “Yes sir Brigade”, “Jaahil – Ignorant”, “Matric Pass” for our Armed forces, picking up motivation from a thread here I thought to analyse these terms in a more objective way instead of the usual “fatwa brigade” mentality we are so fond of.

I want this article to be a rational attempt at analyzing things rather than the garbage of ignorant opinionated views. I am using English as simple as I can so that most of the people can benefit, and not trying to impress anyone with my prowess of English vocabulary, thus I seek apology from more learned people over a certain degree of Colloquialism. This thread will also appear on my blog.

https://historiananalyst.wordpress.com

First the necessary I am not an Armed forces officer serving or retired, I am not attached to any institution linked directly or indirectly to Armed forces of Pakistan, and I am not paid by anyone to write this analysis frankly very few can really afford my cost. I was selected in one of the forces as a potential officer candidate, joined the academy but mid-way left due to my own reasons without any bad feelings for that service or the service had/has any bad feeling or disciplinary charges against me. Every effort was made to dissuade me from leaving the service. I spend a major part of my life education and profession abroad (about two decades and change) and that has given me the perspective to appreciate our forces. My family has strong ties to armed forces but that’s it.

So now distribution of talent in any society marks the growth or development of that particular segment where most of the talent is directed and it is different for different countries.

For decades Pakistani talent has been directed primarily at Armed forces, except that someone inherently doesn’t want to join armed forces due to one reason or the other or for medical reasons very other young man give armed forces a try some ISSB and some the rank, some try a short commission after education. Practically millions of young men go to the recruitment and selection centers of Armed forces, I will be using Army as the prime example, be it the ranks or be it the officers the selection criteria is pretty tough. For officer preliminary test, the physical test, then medical these are three different filters and finally approximately 100,000 candidates enter ISSB (my figures may be bit off but gist remains) out of those only few hundred make it to all three services not even a thousand at any given point in time. Oh did I forget the background check… many a shining people are filtered out due to that very check. ISSB (though I have my reservations about modernizing the criteria) has served the forces well.

Nut shell with the exception of few most of youth talent takes an attempt to join forces, just like any good institution Harvard, Yale, Stanford etc the effort is to make sure that all selected are almost at par with each other in IQ, not out of ordinaries on both sides. So actually pretty much the cream of the nation joins Armed forces. Strangely the lowest bottom of the talent joins either religious fraternity or teaching profession, yes I know PhD and universities etc but the school level where the talent is nurtured we have a major problem, like the religious fraternity.

Now I am picking up bits and pieces from another thread which I wrote.

Now for the low IQ among officers we the class fellows/batch mates have discussed this matter for over a decade, one of us was at a key position in ISSB and we discussed why average intelligence of Officers is dropping and he was pretty opinionated about his statement "officers are a product of our educational system if you see a deterioration in the intelligence this means your education system is deteriorating"

How in God's name education system will improve when we are sending the lowest among our talent pool as the ones who are supposed to nurture our future talent, seems a bit odd.
ISSB is not a joke, it is meant to evaluate who you are, are you capable of motivating and leading the men put under your charge will you be able to take care of them. You cannot beat it some of the finest people are there to evaluate candidates, yes there is a degree of nepotism, influential do influence selection of their kin but if they are not capable enough you will see them retiring soon.

I know my school and college one of the most talented pool of students in one batch that I ever came across. I know 90% of my school fellows and almost all of my college fellows applied for forces as commissioned officers, school batch was about 60 and college was about 80. Only 1 made to PAF GDP (I think about 10 went for ISSB), 4 including me joined PN (I left half way through my training) and about 3 more joined after B.Sc, with the exception of 2 all have retired both serving are flag rank, 10 made it to PA, I think couple more joined later with the exception of 3 all have retired, all 3 as flag rank officers. Hope the readers get the picture. My batch in school and college was one of the extra ordinary one the number of positions in Matric and FSc board from my batch is a testament of that, we were not given 95% like today the marking was very strict that time and yet.

Now herein is another very interesting fact, over the years I have come to realize why some people hate the forces so much and have categorized them as follows:
• Rejected by ISSB twice
• Belonging to families who despite holding Pakistani credentials are not Pakistanis at heart
• Influenced by Media channels like Jew News/Geo news, and Daily G*y/ Daily Dawn
• Good at heart people who think they know the grey areas in forces and yet don’t know the real armed forces.
• Drummed out of Armed Forces due to “conduct unbecoming of officer” or other disciplinary charges

Three of our class fellows who are vehemently opposing Armed forces these day incidentally were rejected by ISSB twice one is also influenced by mullahs, one worked for G*y Media Group/dawn Media Group and the third one well let’s just say many of us class fellows have been supporting him and his family throughout his life. These three gentlemen find everything in Pakistan going wrong due to Armed Forces for obvious reasons. Yeah two of our batch mates were drummed out from PN for reason (5) one of them is a senior banker and the other a businessman. Businessman is Ok with his life but the banker is vehemently against Forces strange ain’t it.

So the growth of Forces Institutions apart from their ability to Arm twist may also be due to the fact that most of the talented gentlemen of the country end up here and they are damn loyal to their institution as compared to many of the rest gentlemen.

So far I have only able to address the IQ part, hopefully.

Now the next 2 parts. i.e; “Parrots – tottay”, “Yes sir Brigade”

We have to understand what the purpose of forces is and what they are required to do.
Purpose is simple defense/offense and weeding out all shrubs posing a danger to the country they are sworn to protect. Another point that is used that somehow in the forces no one questions an order, I only smile at that. I am sure the professionals of Armed Forces across the globe would do too.

In the states and even Pak forces it is a well-established fact that forces are not run by the officers but the JCOs. Weaker the officer stronger the JCO or any other combination, senior JCO is always involved in company level decisions, good officers listen to their JCO. The reason Yes sir culture is necessary is not due to British DNA, but the necessity that if the ranks develop the habit of questioning their officer this could lead to serious problem in engagements. Any input if required from JCO is most of the time at the planning stage after that its execution. Those who know Pak forces culture they know all too well that all field officer are very independent when it comes to tactical decision necessitated by circumstances when compared to our eastern people. People have no idea what happens in the meetings of formation commanders or Corps commanders.

If we develop the culture of second guessing orders of officer we are looking at disaster beyond repair, what would happen if a subordinate questions the order of a senior to take out an enemy sniper who is in a position to take out their entire company, or what would happened when the subordinate refuses to fire at enemy at a critical time?

Pakistan Army is different from US Army, which is a no questions asked army they have to do marketing campaigns in order to attract people, criminals, drug traffickers, rapist, sociopaths psychopaths are a norm in their forces. We, we have no shortage of volunteers. Pakistan forces spend a considerable amount of money just to ensure the background checking of all potential soldier. Of course there are bound to be errors but the system is pretty robust and all errors are corrected through drumming out and early retirements, may be a court martial as well.

No Armed force in the world could afford subordinates second guessing orders, orders are to be carried out without question. Besides is our civil life any different? I have seen supervisors screw the career of subordinates who questions them, it just a hypocrisy that well our subordinates must be yes men in civil life but uniformed people must be second guessing their officers.

Now for the other part “Jaahil – Ignorant”, “Matric Pass”, from what I think the “Matric Pass” officers of JCC/JCB are almost gone if not then in the next 10 years there will no more be any officer who joined through JCC or JCB it is now F.Sc/F.A. Moreover, a fuaji doesn’t require a degree to fire a gun what he requires is training, muscle memory, physical conditioning, evaluation of circumstance, account of resources, leading the people to achieve target within the available resources.

Let me quote my two friends both flag rank officers in PA. “A**** convinced me to join PA because we didn’t want to study more, so we applied and joined P.A little did we know that throughout our career most of time we will only be studying, now when I look back I don’t regret but had I known that its study that I will be doing through my professional life I may not have joined P.A”

Indoctrination in Pakistani Armed forces is beyond belief, in the most dangerous of tasks most of the time it is voluntary and never has there been a mission where there was a shortage of volunteers. Even if it means going out in a radiation zone or protecting an area where Pakistan is going to Test it nukes with less than 50% survival chances, it is easy to say buy voluntarily putting your life on line to protect the country the ideals is altogether a different thing.

No one asks a doctor how many degrees he has, all he must have is a good diagnosis ability, good manners and good prescription so by that virtue I think we have very good and capable armed forces, despite the lack of resources and internal traitors.

I have my questions about few practices in the forces like elevation to flag rank, forces know each and every thing about their officers so how come people like Zia, beg, musharraf and kiani and many other made it to flag rank that is something which requires serious rework. US forces utilize the services of subject matter experts extensively from the civilian side and they are given utmost respect, however here the officers consider themselves all-knowing and thus fail to learn from civilian subject matter experts and are never trained to extend respect to anyone other than a senior or uniformed person, there is another but this is not the forum so in my opinion these things need rework along some fresh perspectives.

Otherwise we have a pretty robust and talented pool in our forces both at officers and JCOs level.

Once we make a house and a window is found to be out of place we don’t tear down the whole house, we change the area which requires improvement, I know Armed forces have grey areas but we cannot go out and change the entire setup. History is full of incidents where a set order was disturbed and the results were anything but good.

Humanity is all about evolution our forces too are evolving some of the lessons our forces have learned in the last few decades which resulted in hard lessons and future course of action are there will never be a 71, we will never be caught with our pants down, civilian rulers no matter how good will never be allowed to cause another Indus water or Kargil, Shareef Family will never again be allowed to oust any COAS even if it means to have Musharraf as COAS and Pakistan forces will never ever again take part in any one else’s war.
I have done this piece in about two hours so errors and omission are regretted, I now have to drive to the farm house for weekend.

great read!...

however i do wish our armed forces make the following changes.. `BTW i believe these are due to Pakistani character rather than institutional issues

> road rages
> breaking lines and creating unnecessary protocol
> a more humbler attitude when dealing with civilians

having said that i do not disagree with any of PA strategic polices for last 5 years.

 

[ps3linux]

Your logic is flawed.

The highest budget allocation is to the military. Then whatever is left is divided into a different heads. Remaining budget allocation is for the entire country and federation also has to share a portion of it with provinces. Running a country with whatever is left is not an easy task. Progress takes time and if you compare the situation today with say situation that was some 20 years ago you shall feel the difference.

Regarding corruption the topic has been discussed in details on this very forum about corruption of both civilian and military personnel.

Regarding progress in Rawalpindi cantonment board. I am sure you have seen the houses of the retired and serving military personnel in the area. Try to find out how many of them pay property tax. You shall be surprised. The board is headed by a serving brigadier. Do you think a brigadier can send a notice to a retired or serving general to pay property tax.

Normally I take solace in my signature but as Armed Forces have a place in my heart so I am making an exception.

Your logic is flawed.

The highest budget allocation is to the military. Then whatever is left is divided into a different heads. Remaining budget allocation is for the entire country and federation also has to share a portion of it with provinces. Running a country with whatever is left is not an easy task. Progress takes time and if you compare the situation today with say situation that was some 20 years ago you shall feel the difference.

Although its non sequitur, but thanks for the sweeping statement.

I am humbled with the Ad hominem.

I merely have 8 or 9 degrees/charters in finance from premier international universities/institutions and experience of working with some of the top financial companies in the world, definitely my logic would be flawed on comparative basis.

Regarding progress in Rawalpindi cantonment board. I am sure you have seen the houses of the retired and serving military personnel in the area. Try to find out how many of them pay property tax. You shall be surprised. The board is headed by a serving brigadier. Do you think a brigadier can send a notice to a retired or serving general to pay property tax.

I was not blessed with premonition thus I don't have an affinity to assumptions, being a number and science guy I try to base my conclusions on facts.

We live in the same premises my parents, brother and I, we have our own houses registered separately in Rawalpindi cantt. Both of them may be generals may be a three star retired and a three star serving and we all get property tax evaluation every year. Property Tax is paid in time along, vehicle tax, income tax, professional tax and all the taxes which other Pakistanis have to pay. I know 4 other generals living in Rawalpindi cantt personally (lalazar, New lalazar and Rah e Aman) all of them pay property tax.

Yes there is another example, there is a link road between Adyala Road and Lalazar passing through Mumtaz colony as soon as Adyala Road ends, a bridge links to Lalazar. The Corner house opposite to Dr. Masood's house is that of a famous Zia era general he has grabbed almost 20 feet of road, doesn't pay any property tax despite being in Cantt. Because his son was an eminent lawyer and now a judge any notice by cantt board, revenue board or any other gets an indefinite "Stay Order". And No I wont start about General Mumtaz one of those people due to whom I have lots and lots of respect and love for Armed forces of Pakistan

Then there is his compatriot from the same era, same four star retired who lives in New Lalazar pays full taxes, and earns through the business of second hand furniture. Both families are known to us personally.

But I'd be very much interested in learning otherwise not from figment of mind but facts.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Comparing Pakistani Generals to US Generals is not a good comparion, is it? USA doesnt have 50% people living below poverty line. Their Army doesnt poke themselves in every aspect of the society.

Their military is psychologically embedded in their thought process. Nothing like gaining control over the hearts and minds. Why'd you even need property if you have the populace under control.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251011749_Unsettling_the_Military_Entertainment_Complex_Video_Games_and_a_Pedagogy_of_Peace

"... While those initial jointly produced and created war games focused on training already enlisted military personnel, the second wave of games, those immensely popular within civilian populations, served as (1) source of profi t for the video game industry, (2) vehicles of recruitment of future soldiers; and (3) an instrument of fostering support for US foreign policy and its increasing reliance on military prowess. Leonard (2004) off ers a helpful summary of the deepening entanglements between the US military and the video games. After initially recognizing the potential instructional use of Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear in simulated urban combat, Leonard notes: ...
... Costing taxpayers upwards of eight million dollars, America's Army has been a huge success, with over 1.5 million registered users, bringing the training and operations of the military into millions of homes. The Defense Department has also worked closely with the production of games like Rainbow Six: Raven Shield and Socom II: U.S. Navy SEALs, utilizing each as a means to test and train military personnel, concerning leadership skills (Leonard 2004) Embracing elements of military simulation trainers, 'squad leaders learn how to command nine soldiers in complex, confusing urban warfare scenarios. The game isn't about sprinting, Rambo-like, through alleys with guns blazing' (Slagle, 2003). ..."

You'd be naive to think that the US MIC only sponsored "America's Army". It dutifully embeds itself in Hollywood blockbusters and major games, with US Army consultants advising filmmakers and game makers on how to best showcase American military might in their products.

All on the Taxpayers dime.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Oh and by the way, it would be interesting to find out why all generals are paindoos? Never ever heard a well spoken general

General's gonna speak the language of the masses. Or do you want them to speak to their subordinates in English?
Majority population is Punjabi/Urdu speaking. If you missed it, Pakistan is not a colonial subject anymore.

Kon log ho yar tm.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I enjoyed reading the OP in its entirety. Thank you for your thoughts. If I may make a few comments:

When people criticize or praise the armed forces, they conflate two different things: the rank-and-file and the leadership. This is an important distinction since most of the former are indeed commendable, while many of the latter are not. Indeed, the tactic usually favored is to hide valid criticisms of the leadership behind the selfless courage and devotion to duty of the rank-and-file.

Having observed the above, I think it is important to keep in mind that nearly three quarters of a century after independence, the nature of the country, and the relative roles of its institutions are cast firmly, and one must look beyond it after accepting the roles played by the military, regardless of whether one thinks it is right or wrong.

It is what it is, to quote a recently popular phrase.

Lastly, let me end by saying that the reason for any country to exist is for its people, no matter how they are governed. Any country that does not serve its people eventually succumbs to internal and/or external forces, no matter how noble or wonderful any of its institutions think they might be in their own minds.

To not conflate rank-and-file with leadership is not really as important a distinction as you suggest. What is now the leadership was once the rank-and-file that gave its sweat and blood in service to the nation. To me this is how things stand: the culture of the institution is such that it is rigged to select and recruit within its ranks its own mediocrity because this mediocrity is mistakenly identified with a peculiar kind of competence which past experience has vindicated as having worked best. Add to this institutional culture a messiah complex and the assumption of infallibility, both of which arise from a habit of practicing unchallengeable brute force and from the belief that the army is only this institution that is a true, merit-based representation of the people of Pakistan, and you have everything that I would consider unpalatable about the army. The creation of built-in mechanisms for self-criticism and retrospection may improve things.

 

[Ghost 125]

Oh and by the way, it would be interesting to find out why all generals are paindoos? Never ever heard a well spoken general

that because you dont have access to the generals inner circle. you can only listen to one odd retired gen on talk shows etc