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Indian-American Learns Shocking Truth About Pakistan on Visit
JUL 8

Posted by usindiamonitor



Many of us travel for business or leisure. But few ever take a trip that dramatically shatters their entire worldview of a country and a people in one fell swoop. I was lucky enough to have returned from just such a trip: a week-long sojourn in Pakistan.

It was a true eye-opener, and a thoroughly enjoyable one at that. Many of the assumptions and feelings I had held toward the country for nearly 30 years were challenged and exposed as wrong and even ignorant outright.

Yes, I was aware of all the reasons not to go, safety foremost among them. As an American, an Indian, and a Hindu there seemed to be multiple reasons for someone of my background to have concerns about security. Relatives and friends couldn’t hide their dismay and genuine fear; a frequent question was “why would you want to go?” The subtext is that there’s nothing to see there that’s worth the risk.

The Western and Indian media feed us a steady diet of stories about bomb blasts, gunfights, kidnappings, torture, subjugation of women, dysfunctional government, and scary madrassa schools that are training the next generation of jihadist terrorists. And yes, to many Westerners and especially Indians, Pakistan is the enemy, embodying all that is wrong in the world. Incidents such as the beheading of American journalist Daniel Pearl, 26/11 and the Osama Bin Laden raid in Abottobad have not helped the cause either. Numerous international relations analysts proclaim that Pakistan is “the most dangerous place in the world” and the border with India is “the most dangerous border in the world.”


I’m not naive enough to argue that these proclamations don’t have some elements of truth; through extensive academic work on Pakistan’s governance, its history, and its nuclear weapons arsenal I know that some problems are real. Rather, I am here to tell you that these aspects are overblown; that this country is about so much more, a whole other and much larger, beautiful, glorious, and uplifting side not given equal time by the media. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. And it’s time that Indians and Americans acknowledge Pakistan for what it really is as a whole- and our ignorance for what that is.

It may be easy to dismiss my firsthand experience as anecdotal: yes, I stayed in affluent neighborhoods in large cities, mostly met those who belong to the educated elite, was protected by firearm-toting bodyguards, and rarely revealed my ethnic background to most of the new people I met. Funnily enough, I don’t think now that the absence of any of these factors would have changed my experience at all.

The Genesis

My trip to Pakistan was not planned much in advance. I was in Sri Lanka for a friend’s wedding and spent a great deal of time with two Pakistani friends from my undergraduate days at Georgetown. Both are now businessmen, one in Karachi and the other in Lahore. I was going to be in India soon, and mentioned that a trip to Pakistan is something I always wanted to do, but I was too scared to execute it. Over the next few hours, we had some beer and seafood by the hotel swimming pool in Colombo and got into a detailed and lively discussion, during which time they insisted I visit and guaranteed my safety throughout the stay. My concerns allayed, I promised to make it happen, probably the first person from my family tree to visit Pakistan since the bloody 1947 partition. I was fortunate to have the opportunity for a fully hosted trip and couldn’t pass it up anymore. I have realized now more than ever before how deep the friendships forged during college can run- cutting across borders, cultures, and time.

Karachi

As I was about to land in Karachi on my flight from Colombo, Sri Lanka (direct flights from India are few and far between), I was gripped by a familiar fear. What the hell was I doing? What if I got detained in the airport and then deported because they found out my Indian ancestry and suspected my motives? How would my parents react if they learned I was the victim of a bomb blast while traveling around the city? On the plane I sat next to a very chatty and friendly executive from Lahore, who had gone to Sri Lanka on business. He was excited to tell me about Pakistan since it was my first visit, and the conversation was pleasant enough. But I kept feeling the growing knot of fear in my stomach. I tried to be brave as the plane landed. As my friend had said, 20 million people live in Karachi and now and then bad things happen, but the odds of it affecting me were very low.

Fortunately I got through immigration at the Quaid-e-Azam Airport quickly, and a friend was waiting for me with his pickup truck. The first thing I saw outside the airport was… a giant McDonald’s restaurant surrounded by a large and well-manicured green lawn. An unexpected welcome from the golden arches on a sunny, hot day.

Two uniformed bodyguards with rifles who were exceedingly friendly and welcoming climbed onto the pickup truck bed as we started on a 45-minute drive. I was impressed by the massive, well-maintained parks and gardens surrounding the airport. I was also impressed by the general cleanliness, the orderliness of the traffic, the quality of the roads, and the greenery. Coming from a city government background, I was surprised at how organized Karachi was throughout the ride. I also didn’t see many beggars the entire way. I had just spent significant amounts of time in two major Indian cities, Mumbai and Bangalore, as well as several second-tier cities like Mangalore, and none would compare favorably on maintenance and city planning, especially when it came to potholes and waste management. This was the first surprise; I was expecting that piles of garbage and dirt would line the roads and beggars would overflow onto the streets. Surely there is dirt and poverty in Karachi, but far less than I was expecting. Karachi was also less dense and crowded than India’s cities.

My second pleasant surprise was to see numerous large development projects under way. I had read about Pakistan’s sluggish GDP growth and corruption in public works and foreign aid disbursement. This may be true, but construction was going on all over the place: new movie theaters, new malls, new skyscrapers, new roads, and entire new neighborhoods being built from scratch. In this regard it was similar to India and every other part of Asia I had seen recently: new development and rapid change continues apace, something we are seeing less of in the West.

Just a few of the many highlights in Karachi included relaxing at beachside cafes, dining at amazing tandoori restaurants such as the massive Barbecue Tonight, an excellent burger/brunch joint called Xander’s, a visit to the historic and beautiful Mazar-e-Quaid where the nation’s founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah is entombed in a marble mausoleum, visiting a book fair next to the British-era Frere Hall, and a sailboat ride around the Karachi port where a magnificent crab feast fit for a Mogul emperor was served on board. The service was so impeccable, the cooks would crack and remove individual crab claw shells by hand to make it easier to access the fresh meat.

We were also able to do some things which may sound more familiar to Americans: bowling at Karachi’s first bowling alley, intense games of pickup basketball with some local teenagers at a large public park (these kids could really play), or passing through massive and well-appointed malls filled with thousands of happy people of all ages walking around, shopping, or eating at the food court. We even attended a grand launch party for Magnum ice cream bars, featuring many of Pakistan’s A-list actors, models, and businesspeople. A friend who is involved in producing musicals directed an excellent performance at the party, complete with live band, singing, and dancing. This troupe, Made for Stage has also produced shows such as the Broadway musical Chicago to critical acclaim with an all-Pakistani cast for the first time in history.

Even the poor areas we visited, such as the neighborhoods around the Mazar, were filled with families coming out for a picnic or a stroll, enjoying their weekend leisure time in the sun. All I could see were friendly and happy people, including children with striking features running around. At no time did I feel the least bit unsafe anywhere we went, and we definitely went through a mix of neighborhoods with varying profiles.

Lahore

Lahore is more beautiful overall than Karachi or any large Indian city I’ve seen. Serious effort has gone into keeping the city green and preserving its storied history. Historians would have a field day here. In particular we saw two stunning historic mosques, the Wazir Khan and the Badshahi, both of which should be considered treasures not only for Muslims, Pakistanis, or South Asia, but for all of humanity. I felt it a crime that I’d never even heard of either one. Each of them in different ways features breath-taking architecture and intricate artwork comparable to India’s Taj Mahal. These are must-see sights for any tourist to Lahore. The best way to enjoy the vista of the Badshahi mosque is to have a meal on the rooftop of one of the many superb restaurants on Food Street next to the mosque compound. This interesting area was for hundreds of years an infamous red-light district, made up of a series of old wooden rowhouses that look like they were lifted straight out of New Orleans’ Bourbon Street, strangely juxtaposed with one of the country’s holiest shrines. From the roof of Cuckoo’s Den restaurant, we could see all of the massive Badshahi complex along with the adjoining royal fortress, all while having a 5-star meal of kebabs, spicy curries in clay pots, and lassi under the stars. We were fortunate to have very pleasant whether as well. This alfresco dining experience with two good friends encompassed my favorite moments in the city.

We did much more in Lahore. We were given a tour of the renowned Aitchison College, which one of my friends attended. This boys’ private prep school is known for its difficult entrance exams, rigorous academic tradition, illustrious list of alumni since the British founded the school, and its gorgeous and impeccably maintained 200-acre campus that puts most major universities icluding my own Georgetown to shame. Aitchison has been considered one of the best prep schools on the subcontinent since 1886. However, it would have been impossible to get a tour without the alumni connection because security is very thorough.

We went out to the village of Kasur, not too far from the famous Waga border with India, to see my friend’s agricultural business. This gave me a profile of village life, which like India makes up most of the country. The highway on the way was in very good condition, and the village was serene and pleasant, if poor. Just as with the cities, I saw lots of potential in this place. With more advanced farming, shipping, and storage methods, it’s quite likely that we will see much more wealth coming to Pakistan’s villages in the near future.

Beer seems to taste better when it’s bootlegged. There’s an alcohol prohibition in effect across Pakistan so there’s no other way to get it. One of the modern contradictions of Pakistani life is that the country has a top-notch brewer called Murree’s, set up during the British Raj, but the company officially exists only to export the beer- or to have it sold on the local black market, which is apparently insatiable. If you have the money and contacts, you are usually able to find booze. We spent two leisurely evenings in Lahore drinking Murree’s in my friend’s pool, swimming, chatting, and listening to music such as techno, hip-hop, and Talking Heads. Life does not get any better than that- in Pakistan or elsewhere.

In Conclusion

This is a story about more than individual friendships, which brought me to Pakistan in the first place. I was hosted by a number of people in their homes, including a former high-ranking general of the Pakistani Army, and treated like a part of the family despite my background. I conducted several meetings, both formal and informal to discuss business opportunities, and was always treated with great respect. I made a number of new friends, people who I hope to stay in touch with and see many times again.

Indians and Pakistanis should take a step back and think about all of the things they have in common. The brand of Islam I saw in Pakistan was benign, mostly relegated to melodic prayer calls from the minarets, and pleasant salutations between people. It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. Pakistanis and Indians are cut from the same cloth, and really aren’t that different from each other. I think this was my biggest and most pleasant surprise of all. The ill feelings that do exist are mostly manufactured for political gain on both sides of the border, or based on slights from decades or even centuries ago.

Though there are grand challenges, foremost among them the issue of Kashmir and related border disputes, these should be easily overshadowed by the economic opportunities available to Pakistan, India, and the West by increasing their level of international trade. In fact, I believe commerce and the march of capitalism will provide the path for India and Pakistan to become allies as nations and friends as people.

There are certainly other challenges. Terrorism and gangsterism are very real problems, and they are alive and well in Pakistan, especially in the rough terrain of the Northwest Frontier region ruled by tribal militias and their blood feuds. The army continues to play an outsized role in government, and there are not yet any better options as the civilian leaders are mostly compromised by business interests and cronyism in a land where feudal tendencies appear time and again. But even these problems can be overcome by bringing Pakistan deeper into the community of nations, and further integrating Pakistan into world markets. India and the United States for their part can do more to help bring this about. I am convinced that instead of the delicate dance the three nations have done around each other since 1947, it is time for all to become closer friends and drop the pretexts for moving backward instead of forward. What I saw in Pakistan more than the perils, is great potential.

I plan to do my part, and this piece is only the first step.

(UPDATE 9/2/12): Thank you readers for over 2,000 facebook likes, 300 tweets, etc. I am very happy to see the reception this piece has gotten. Check out this video of a Pakistani band singing one of my favorite songs all-time:




Mahanth S. Joishy is Editor of usindiamonitor.com.


The Indian American does say some mean things, but he also says some good things as well I suppose.

https://usindiamonitor.com/2012/07/08/eye-opener-an-indian-american-visits-pakistan/
 
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Indian-American Learns Shocking Truth About Pakistan on Visit
JUL 8

Posted by usindiamonitor



Many of us travel for business or leisure. But few ever take a trip that dramatically shatters their entire worldview of a country and a people in one fell swoop. I was lucky enough to have returned from just such a trip: a week-long sojourn in Pakistan.

It was a true eye-opener, and a thoroughly enjoyable one at that. Many of the assumptions and feelings I had held toward the country for nearly 30 years were challenged and exposed as wrong and even ignorant outright.

Yes, I was aware of all the reasons not to go, safety foremost among them. As an American, an Indian, and a Hindu there seemed to be multiple reasons for someone of my background to have concerns about security. Relatives and friends couldn’t hide their dismay and genuine fear; a frequent question was “why would you want to go?” The subtext is that there’s nothing to see there that’s worth the risk.

The Western and Indian media feed us a steady diet of stories about bomb blasts, gunfights, kidnappings, torture, subjugation of women, dysfunctional government, and scary madrassa schools that are training the next generation of jihadist terrorists. And yes, to many Westerners and especially Indians, Pakistan is the enemy, embodying all that is wrong in the world. Incidents such as the beheading of American journalist Daniel Pearl, 26/11 and the Osama Bin Laden raid in Abottobad have not helped the cause either. Numerous international relations analysts proclaim that Pakistan is “the most dangerous place in the world” and the border with India is “the most dangerous border in the world.”


I’m not naive enough to argue that these proclamations don’t have some elements of truth; through extensive academic work on Pakistan’s governance, its history, and its nuclear weapons arsenal I know that some problems are real. Rather, I am here to tell you that these aspects are overblown; that this country is about so much more, a whole other and much larger, beautiful, glorious, and uplifting side not given equal time by the media. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. And it’s time that Indians and Americans acknowledge Pakistan for what it really is as a whole- and our ignorance for what that is.

It may be easy to dismiss my firsthand experience as anecdotal: yes, I stayed in affluent neighborhoods in large cities, mostly met those who belong to the educated elite, was protected by firearm-toting bodyguards, and rarely revealed my ethnic background to most of the new people I met. Funnily enough, I don’t think now that the absence of any of these factors would have changed my experience at all.

The Genesis

My trip to Pakistan was not planned much in advance. I was in Sri Lanka for a friend’s wedding and spent a great deal of time with two Pakistani friends from my undergraduate days at Georgetown. Both are now businessmen, one in Karachi and the other in Lahore. I was going to be in India soon, and mentioned that a trip to Pakistan is something I always wanted to do, but I was too scared to execute it. Over the next few hours, we had some beer and seafood by the hotel swimming pool in Colombo and got into a detailed and lively discussion, during which time they insisted I visit and guaranteed my safety throughout the stay. My concerns allayed, I promised to make it happen, probably the first person from my family tree to visit Pakistan since the bloody 1947 partition. I was fortunate to have the opportunity for a fully hosted trip and couldn’t pass it up anymore. I have realized now more than ever before how deep the friendships forged during college can run- cutting across borders, cultures, and time.

Karachi

As I was about to land in Karachi on my flight from Colombo, Sri Lanka (direct flights from India are few and far between), I was gripped by a familiar fear. What the hell was I doing? What if I got detained in the airport and then deported because they found out my Indian ancestry and suspected my motives? How would my parents react if they learned I was the victim of a bomb blast while traveling around the city? On the plane I sat next to a very chatty and friendly executive from Lahore, who had gone to Sri Lanka on business. He was excited to tell me about Pakistan since it was my first visit, and the conversation was pleasant enough. But I kept feeling the growing knot of fear in my stomach. I tried to be brave as the plane landed. As my friend had said, 20 million people live in Karachi and now and then bad things happen, but the odds of it affecting me were very low.

Fortunately I got through immigration at the Quaid-e-Azam Airport quickly, and a friend was waiting for me with his pickup truck. The first thing I saw outside the airport was… a giant McDonald’s restaurant surrounded by a large and well-manicured green lawn. An unexpected welcome from the golden arches on a sunny, hot day.

Two uniformed bodyguards with rifles who were exceedingly friendly and welcoming climbed onto the pickup truck bed as we started on a 45-minute drive. I was impressed by the massive, well-maintained parks and gardens surrounding the airport. I was also impressed by the general cleanliness, the orderliness of the traffic, the quality of the roads, and the greenery. Coming from a city government background, I was surprised at how organized Karachi was throughout the ride. I also didn’t see many beggars the entire way. I had just spent significant amounts of time in two major Indian cities, Mumbai and Bangalore, as well as several second-tier cities like Mangalore, and none would compare favorably on maintenance and city planning, especially when it came to potholes and waste management. This was the first surprise; I was expecting that piles of garbage and dirt would line the roads and beggars would overflow onto the streets. Surely there is dirt and poverty in Karachi, but far less than I was expecting. Karachi was also less dense and crowded than India’s cities.

My second pleasant surprise was to see numerous large development projects under way. I had read about Pakistan’s sluggish GDP growth and corruption in public works and foreign aid disbursement. This may be true, but construction was going on all over the place: new movie theaters, new malls, new skyscrapers, new roads, and entire new neighborhoods being built from scratch. In this regard it was similar to India and every other part of Asia I had seen recently: new development and rapid change continues apace, something we are seeing less of in the West.

Just a few of the many highlights in Karachi included relaxing at beachside cafes, dining at amazing tandoori restaurants such as the massive Barbecue Tonight, an excellent burger/brunch joint called Xander’s, a visit to the historic and beautiful Mazar-e-Quaid where the nation’s founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah is entombed in a marble mausoleum, visiting a book fair next to the British-era Frere Hall, and a sailboat ride around the Karachi port where a magnificent crab feast fit for a Mogul emperor was served on board. The service was so impeccable, the cooks would crack and remove individual crab claw shells by hand to make it easier to access the fresh meat.

We were also able to do some things which may sound more familiar to Americans: bowling at Karachi’s first bowling alley, intense games of pickup basketball with some local teenagers at a large public park (these kids could really play), or passing through massive and well-appointed malls filled with thousands of happy people of all ages walking around, shopping, or eating at the food court. We even attended a grand launch party for Magnum ice cream bars, featuring many of Pakistan’s A-list actors, models, and businesspeople. A friend who is involved in producing musicals directed an excellent performance at the party, complete with live band, singing, and dancing. This troupe, Made for Stage has also produced shows such as the Broadway musical Chicago to critical acclaim with an all-Pakistani cast for the first time in history.

Even the poor areas we visited, such as the neighborhoods around the Mazar, were filled with families coming out for a picnic or a stroll, enjoying their weekend leisure time in the sun. All I could see were friendly and happy people, including children with striking features running around. At no time did I feel the least bit unsafe anywhere we went, and we definitely went through a mix of neighborhoods with varying profiles.

Lahore

Lahore is more beautiful overall than Karachi or any large Indian city I’ve seen. Serious effort has gone into keeping the city green and preserving its storied history. Historians would have a field day here. In particular we saw two stunning historic mosques, the Wazir Khan and the Badshahi, both of which should be considered treasures not only for Muslims, Pakistanis, or South Asia, but for all of humanity. I felt it a crime that I’d never even heard of either one. Each of them in different ways features breath-taking architecture and intricate artwork comparable to India’s Taj Mahal. These are must-see sights for any tourist to Lahore. The best way to enjoy the vista of the Badshahi mosque is to have a meal on the rooftop of one of the many superb restaurants on Food Street next to the mosque compound. This interesting area was for hundreds of years an infamous red-light district, made up of a series of old wooden rowhouses that look like they were lifted straight out of New Orleans’ Bourbon Street, strangely juxtaposed with one of the country’s holiest shrines. From the roof of Cuckoo’s Den restaurant, we could see all of the massive Badshahi complex along with the adjoining royal fortress, all while having a 5-star meal of kebabs, spicy curries in clay pots, and lassi under the stars. We were fortunate to have very pleasant whether as well. This alfresco dining experience with two good friends encompassed my favorite moments in the city.

We did much more in Lahore. We were given a tour of the renowned Aitchison College, which one of my friends attended. This boys’ private prep school is known for its difficult entrance exams, rigorous academic tradition, illustrious list of alumni since the British founded the school, and its gorgeous and impeccably maintained 200-acre campus that puts most major universities icluding my own Georgetown to shame. Aitchison has been considered one of the best prep schools on the subcontinent since 1886. However, it would have been impossible to get a tour without the alumni connection because security is very thorough.

We went out to the village of Kasur, not too far from the famous Waga border with India, to see my friend’s agricultural business. This gave me a profile of village life, which like India makes up most of the country. The highway on the way was in very good condition, and the village was serene and pleasant, if poor. Just as with the cities, I saw lots of potential in this place. With more advanced farming, shipping, and storage methods, it’s quite likely that we will see much more wealth coming to Pakistan’s villages in the near future.

Beer seems to taste better when it’s bootlegged. There’s an alcohol prohibition in effect across Pakistan so there’s no other way to get it. One of the modern contradictions of Pakistani life is that the country has a top-notch brewer called Murree’s, set up during the British Raj, but the company officially exists only to export the beer- or to have it sold on the local black market, which is apparently insatiable. If you have the money and contacts, you are usually able to find booze. We spent two leisurely evenings in Lahore drinking Murree’s in my friend’s pool, swimming, chatting, and listening to music such as techno, hip-hop, and Talking Heads. Life does not get any better than that- in Pakistan or elsewhere.

In Conclusion

This is a story about more than individual friendships, which brought me to Pakistan in the first place. I was hosted by a number of people in their homes, including a former high-ranking general of the Pakistani Army, and treated like a part of the family despite my background. I conducted several meetings, both formal and informal to discuss business opportunities, and was always treated with great respect. I made a number of new friends, people who I hope to stay in touch with and see many times again.

Indians and Pakistanis should take a step back and think about all of the things they have in common. The brand of Islam I saw in Pakistan was benign, mostly relegated to melodic prayer calls from the minarets, and pleasant salutations between people. It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. Pakistanis and Indians are cut from the same cloth, and really aren’t that different from each other. I think this was my biggest and most pleasant surprise of all. The ill feelings that do exist are mostly manufactured for political gain on both sides of the border, or based on slights from decades or even centuries ago.

Though there are grand challenges, foremost among them the issue of Kashmir and related border disputes, these should be easily overshadowed by the economic opportunities available to Pakistan, India, and the West by increasing their level of international trade. In fact, I believe commerce and the march of capitalism will provide the path for India and Pakistan to become allies as nations and friends as people.

There are certainly other challenges. Terrorism and gangsterism are very real problems, and they are alive and well in Pakistan, especially in the rough terrain of the Northwest Frontier region ruled by tribal militias and their blood feuds. The army continues to play an outsized role in government, and there are not yet any better options as the civilian leaders are mostly compromised by business interests and cronyism in a land where feudal tendencies appear time and again. But even these problems can be overcome by bringing Pakistan deeper into the community of nations, and further integrating Pakistan into world markets. India and the United States for their part can do more to help bring this about. I am convinced that instead of the delicate dance the three nations have done around each other since 1947, it is time for all to become closer friends and drop the pretexts for moving backward instead of forward. What I saw in Pakistan more than the perils, is great potential.

I plan to do my part, and this piece is only the first step.

(UPDATE 9/2/12): Thank you readers for over 2,000 facebook likes, 300 tweets, etc. I am very happy to see the reception this piece has gotten. Check out this video of a Pakistani band singing one of my favorite songs all-time:




Mahanth S. Joishy is Editor of usindiamonitor.com.


The Indian American does say some mean things, but he also says some good things as well I suppose.

https://usindiamonitor.com/2012/07/08/eye-opener-an-indian-american-visits-pakistan/
I am not discrediting ur thread but frankly we dont need a indian whose own country is ruled by terrorists and is a degenarate hell hole to dole out that judgemental crap between praises, nor do we need these indians to tell us how great our country is n how deeply rooted islam is in our genes, the terroism he talks about is orchestrated by two of his home countries, india n america n last but not the least we have nothing in common with the Indians n that is the principle upon which Jinnah founded Pakistan, we are a completely different race, with different culture, different norms n frankly we look a lot better than these indians.
 
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I am not discrediting ur thread but frankly we dont need a indian whose own country is ruled by terrorists and is a degenarate hell hole to dole out that judgemental crap between praises, nor do we need these indians to tell us how great our country is n how deeply rooted islam is in our genes, the terroism he talks about is orchestrated by two of his home countries, india n america n last but not the least we have nothing in common with the Indians n that is the principle upon which Jinnah founded Pakistan, we are a completely different race, with different culture, different norms n frankly we look a lot better than these indians.
I agree with you.

I was just posting an Indian American's opinion.

I Agree with your views.

India treats it's Muslim and Christian minorities like crap.

I disagree with the Indian American. We Pakistanis have nothing in common with Indians.
 
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Quite a shytty and a stuck-up nose write up.

Btw this guy seems to have lost it badly, where in the world this hapoens in mid east:
" It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. "


Also looking at this i am once again disappointed. A high ranking general hosting an indian.

"I was hosted by a number of people in their homes, including a former high-ranking general of the Pakistani Army, and treated like a part of the family despite my background."

No wonder these army generals have been selling away pakistan like politicians. But when we have army officers who have daughters like Mawra hocane who support films like Phantom and justify them by saying terrorism should be cleaned no matter where it comes from and we have very high ranking generals like Momina Mustehsans father whose daughter sings for bollywood, a totally talentless singer who gets promoted due to fathers contacts, and then same bollywood singer Momina is invited at Ghq Ispr as a speaker guest. Bravo! no wonder why Pakistan is in such state.
 
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Quite a shytty and a stuck-up nose write up.

Btw this guy seems to have lost it badly, where in the world this hapoens in mid east:
" It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. "


Also looking at this i am once again disappointed. A high ranking general hosting an indian."

No wonder these army generals have been selling away pakistan like politicians. But when we have army officers who have daughters like Mawra hocane who support films like Phantom and justify them by saying terrorism should be cleaned no matter where it comes from and we have very high ranking generals like Momina Mustehsans father whose daughter sings for bollywood, a totally talentless singer who gets promoted due to fathers contacts, and then same bollywood singer Momina is invited at Ghq Ispr as a speaker guest. Bravo! no wonder why Pakistan is in such state.
Its just an Indian-American's anecdote.

I don't take it that seriously. I just wanted to see your guys' input about it.
 
.
I agree with you.

I was just posting an Indian American's opinion.

I Agree with your views.

India treats it's Muslim and Christian minorities like crap.

I disagree with the Indian American. We Pakistanis have nothing in common with Indians.
Yes i know, its just that i get riled up when i hear indians talking about our country, its my weak spot.
 
.
Quite a shytty and a stuck-up nose write up.

Btw this guy seems to have lost it badly, where in the world this hapoens in mid east:
" It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. "


Also looking at this i am once again disappointed. A high ranking general hosting an indian."

No wonder these army generals have been selling away pakistan like politicians. But when we have army officers who have daughters like Mawra hocane who support films like Phantom and justify them by saying terrorism should be cleaned no matter where it comes from and we have very high ranking generals like Momina Mustehsans father whose daughter sings for bollywood, a totally talentless singer who gets promoted due to fathers contacts, and then same bollywood singer Momina is invited at Ghq Ispr as a speaker guest. Bravo! no wonder why Pakistan is in such state.

These shameless libturds are basically a disgrace for the nation. Why a nuclear Pakistan is so shamelessly submissive to USA? because of these desi libturds. They send their kids to study in USA on our expense, they leave for USA after retirement from bureaucracy and military services. These bags of stinky shyt sell everything for a chance to live in the west. They kidnapped the country right from the very beginning. They were behind the medical murder of Quaid-e-Azam and judicial murder of ZAB. These characterless generals like Yahya Khan (he is just notorious while a lot of them including Pervaiz Musharraf are the same) have no shame and grace. That is why your politicians like NS and Zardari also contact USA because they know that the establishment is controlled by uncle sam and thus NROs. This is an aspect that even our so called free media shies away from discussing. However things are changing and not all officers are same...I still believe a large number of them are good.
 
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Quite a shytty and a stuck-up nose write up.

Btw this guy seems to have lost it badly, where in the world this hapoens in mid east:
" It is not an in-your-face brand of the religion as I have seen in the Middle East, where everyone is forced to conform to rules about clothing or shutting down business during prayer times. "


Also looking at this i am once again disappointed. A high ranking general hosting an indian.

"I was hosted by a number of people in their homes, including a former high-ranking general of the Pakistani Army, and treated like a part of the family despite my background."

No wonder these army generals have been selling away pakistan like politicians. But when we have army officers who have daughters like Mawra hocane who support films like Phantom and justify them by saying terrorism should be cleaned no matter where it comes from and we have very high ranking generals like Momina Mustehsans father whose daughter sings for bollywood, a totally talentless singer who gets promoted due to fathers contacts, and then same bollywood singer Momina is invited at Ghq Ispr as a speaker guest. Bravo! no wonder why Pakistan is in such state.
Yes after politicians are cleansed, then we need to knock on the doors of ghq n demand some answers from there as well, but officers with beghairat families such as those u mentioned dont generally make it past brigadier.

These shameless libturds are basically a disgrace for the nation. Why a nuclear Pakistan is so shamelessly submissive to USA? because of these desi libturds. They send their kids to study in USA on our expense, they leave for USA after retirement from bureaucracy and military service. These bags of stinky shyt sell everything for a chance to live in the west. They kidnapped the country right from the very beginning. They were behind the medical murder of Quaid-e-Azam. These characterless generals like Yahya Khan (he is just notorious while a lot of them including Pervaiz Musharraf are same) have no shame and grace. That is why your politicians like NS and Zardari also contact USA because they know that the establishment is controlled by uncle sam and thus NROs. This is an aspect that even our so called free media shies away from discussing. However things are changing and not all officers are same...I still believe a large number of them are good.
There is a diff i think, while there are many black sheeps in the army too yet the armed forces as an institution are professional, patriotic n will cut off both arms n legs for the country, as i said institutoins matter not individuals but in civilian setup its the other way around with some good individuals here n there yet institutions as a whole are designed to be treasonous. Anyways to me, its the ISI holding Pakistan together, not the Army n its the ISI that ensures that most of the upper ranks in the armed forces remain clean. It says a lot about the prowess of our premier intelligence agency that in reality it has been them n not the army that has orchestrated all the coups n political engineering yet not even one has it been blamed, all malba is out on army n that is why the Markhoors are the best there is.:D
 
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Its just an Indian-American's anecdote.

I don't take it that seriously. I just wanted to see your guys' input about it.

Trust me...You guys should be better off with known devil like Sanghi Hindus who are at least up front with their opinion than these so called secularist like the author....These commies secularist just need publicity...They can use any one and any platform to showcase their self intrest..

I should ask the author, why does he choose to think himself as a person who will judge a nation with respect to his biased perception of the past??? Why these so called secularist think holier person than others so that Pakistan just need a certificate from these kind of commie authors???
This mindset of Indian who think, they can pass any judgement about Pakistan should stop...Like the way, we do not like to by judged any any one, same thing for Pakistan too...
 
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Yes after politicians are cleansed, then we need to knock on the doors of ghq n demand some answers from there as well, but officers with beghairat families such as those u mentioned dont generally make it past brigadier.


There is a diff i think, while there are many black sheeps in the army too yet the armed forces as an institution is professional, patriotic n will cut off both arms n legs for the country, as i said institutoins matter not individuals but in civiliann setup its the other way around with some good individuals here n there yet institutions as a whole are designed to be treasonous.
It is a pyramid model. A lot of good people at the base but their number reduces with height.
 
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It is a pyramid model. A lot of good people at the base but their number reduces with height.
A little correction to ur otherwise accurate observation, the lower ranks are clean and the upper ranks too generally remain clean, its the middle ranks that house trouble, those notorious colonels n brigadiers.
 
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A little correction to ur otherwise accurate observation, the lower ranks are clean and the upper ranks too generally remain clean, its the middle ranks that house trouble, those notorious colonels n brigadiers.
I'm from family of soldiers and I have great respect for the military as an institution but I let you know that some rotten eggs make it right to the top... Yahya Khan was just one example. Even Ayyub Khan sold himself to uncle sam and lost the opportunity to free the rest of Kashmir (IoJ&K) in 1962 when Chinese forces entered India. Later wrote the book "Friends not Masters". But what I was referring to is mainly the bureaucracy.
 
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I'm from family of soldiers and I have great respect for the military as an institution but I let you know that some rotten eggs make it right to the top... Yahya Khan was just one example. Even Ayyub Khan sold himself to uncle sam and lost the opportunity to free the rest of Kashmir (IoJ&K) in 1962 when Chinese forces entered India. Later wrote the book "Friends not Masters". But what I was referring to is mainly the bureaucracy.
Ayub khan not so much, maybe facts on the ground were diff n China wouldnt have gone the long mile n our amunation was almost depleted too buy yes yahya khan was a degenarate traitor but all in all apart from a few bad eggs, the military leadership has been quite satisfactory so far n yes bureaucracy is sadly infested with hostile elements to the state.
 
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I'm from family of soldiers and I have great respect for the military as an institution but I let you know that some rotten eggs make it right to the top... Yahya Khan was just one example. Even Ayyub Khan sold himself to uncle sam and lost the opportunity to free the rest of Kashmir (IoJ&K) in 1962 when Chinese forces entered India. Later wrote the book "Friends not Masters". But what I was referring to is mainly the bureaucracy.
Ayub was corrupt from get go , he had rigged elections when fatima jinnah was clearly winning aisi galiyan us kay leeay nikalti hain , kuttay ka word tau choti see baat hai. These bangladeshis who claim pakistani mazalim , they came out in droves and droves to vote for fatima jinnah. They all ayub , yahya ,zia even musharraf all drove us to shytt.

I love army but not these guys. Just look at it this way if these generals were sincere then why after taking over they did not strenghten democracy? Why they had to die or be forced to quit before they stepped down?

Or why they only brought or bred corrupt politicians during their rule ao that when they step down they will have friendly govs around them. Like zia launched a useless nawaz, he propped up altaf hussain , musharraf gave NRO.
 
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That that that shirt
Why is symbol mark for desi dudes?
That shirt in my dictionary meaning Indian Pakistani Bengali SL Nepali:D
 
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