American imperialism and ruthlessness masquerading as freedom and democracy.

[VCheng]

Take your pick of the average shithole African country. Say, Malawi (sorry to any Malawians here, I know it's a bit rich coming from us, right now). I don't recall any scaremongering in western political discourse about Malawians immigrants, I do recall the same about libyan, iraqi and syrian immigrants, countries way better off than Malawi, based on the metrics you mentioned, if not for the fact they they caught the eye of a certain freedom loving country (among others)

For most of Africa, including Malawi, the number of people with disadvantageous economics by mismanagement, corruption, resource scarcity and overpopulation far exceeds those affected by wars, as I said, just like in the rest of the world too. (May be Nigeria is a better example here than Malawi.) The scaremongering about immigration that you mention is a totally different matter pandering to domestic politics that does not affect the veracity of what I have said in the previous sentence. For Libya, Iraq and Syria, it was only European hysterics, USA accepted far more from these countries after Turkey.

(US immigration issues are mostly from illegal immigration, particularly across its southern border, but that is a very different matter than legal immigration for which there are many programs.)

Same rules whereby 5 particular countries are modern day Olympians, while the rest are liable to get screwed anytime.

Anybody can train to be an Olympian. Let anyone who wishes the glory work for it. That is how it goes.

 

[villageidiot]

For most of Africa, including Malawi, the number of people with disadvantageous economics by mismanagement, corruption, resource scarcity and overpopulation far exceeds those affected by wars, as I said, just like in the rest of the world too. (May be Nigeria is a better example here than Malawi.) The scaremongering about immigration that you mention is a totally different matter pandering to domestic politics that does not affect the veracity of what I have said in the previous sentence. For Libya, Iraq and Syria, it was only European hysterics, USA accepted far more from these countries after Turkey.

(US immigration issues are mostly from illegal immigration, particularly across its southern border, but that is a very different matter than legal immigration for which there are many programs.)

You've conveniently changed the goal posts here, my friend. I wasn't saying the wars afflict humanity on a larger scale than, say, poverty or corruption. I was saying war is a much bigger factor when it comes to immigration. Which is why you see more immigrants from aforementioned middle eastern countries, who would be relatively much more prosperous than from the shithole African countries.

Hence, my contention that as soon as you stop dropping bombs on their countries, you'll see significantly less unwanteds coming in.

Anybody can train to be an Olympian. Let anyone who wishes the glory work for it. That is how it goes.

I was referring to the Twelve Olympians. You know, the ones that can zap your a*s from the sky and you can't do nothing about it.

And no, I am not referring to the very capable air forces of said countries. I am referring to the UNSC veto they have.

Tumhari bhains kaisay hai jab laathi hamari hai
Ab is lathi ki zadd par jo bi ayay wo hamara hai
Muzammat kariyon se tum hamara kya bigarro gey
Tumharay vote kya hotay hain jab veto hamara hai

Anwar Masood

 

[Rusty2]

These murtads think that that if everyone was wearing miniskirts and there were bars and clubs everywhere, that suddenly there would be the same western economic standards, with skyscrapers popping up everywhere. Its clown logic, driven from a deep sense of insecurity and an inferiority complex. lol



Again, this is idiotically reductionist, for one thing, Japan was conquered by an outside power and rebuilt according to the wishes of said outside power, I can unpack the dynamics of post war japan further, but that would be too time consuming as you could probably write entire books on the matter. Secondly this imbecilic idea that adapting western aesthetics will suddenly change everything in terms of economics is foolish, economic growth and HDI development is a bit more complicated than that. Case in point, there are several African States that were colonized by Britain where the population converted to Protestant Christianity, adopted English aesthetics both socially and in Govt, yet we don't see economic development and growth like say for example in Qatar or the UAE, which shows that there is a lot more nuance here, than people becoming irreligious and somehow that leads to some sort of socioeconomic utopia. You can even see for example in the US, which is by far out of all western states, the most religious, and certainly far more religious than many post communist eastern bloc states, and yet despite those societies being irreligious they are in no way comparable on the socioeconomic front compared to the US.

Funny how you guys are the arbiters of who is Muslim and who is not despite the fact that it is LITERALLY haram to be that. Hypocrisy is built into your ideology so not surprised.

As for your comment to me, literally no one talked about post war Japan. Why are you so scared to engage with the original premise?
Nothing you have said addressed my original post, nor is it relevant or engaged in good faith.
I will say again, we are living in a post industrial age and your ideology demands we go back to a preindustrial age.
The problem is that you guys are winning, which means we will forever be slaves to the west.
Only way forward is to do what Japan, China, and Korea did. Copy the west in ways that suits us and move forward.
Every non oil developed country on Earth has done it this way.

 

[VCheng]

I was saying war is a much bigger factor when it comes to immigration

And it is not. Please put up data in support of this contention.

I was referring to the Twelve Olympians. You know, the ones that can zap your a*s from the sky and you can't do nothing about it.

LOL. Mythology is lore, not fact, so I cannot say anything here.

immigrants from aforementioned middle eastern countries, who would be relatively much more prosperous

How so? All of a sudden their dictators will let them be prosperous? An unlikely hypothetical claim, for sure.

 

[Rusty2]

Actually, there are some countries that don't play by those rules. For example, Pakistan has no clue how to actually deter India and instead thinks appeasement will work! Haha, we are always the exception, and that's why we tend to get screwed.

Clearly, nobody has ever studied realist IR theory in our corridors of power --- or perhaps it's just easier to apply it domestically, which they do quite well.

I disagree.
I think Pakistan has played the game really well. The thing is that our establishment's goals are not it's people's goal.
The establishment wants free money and war tech from outside. To this end, we are actually one of the best players in the game.
The problem is that this is not the goals that are beneficial to the people, which is why we think we are lousy at it.

 

[villageidiot]

And it is not. Please put up data in support of this contention.

If you need a stranger on a little internet forum to tell you that wars displace more people than poverty, something went very wrong somewhere along the line.

BTW, curious as to why you didn't ask me to put up data when I made this claim the first time around. Maybe now you've realized the strawman wasn't working?

LOL. Mythology is lore, not fact, so I cannot say anything here.

It's called an analogy, mon ami.

How so? All of a sudden their dictators will let them be prosperous? An unlikely hypothetical claim, for sure.

This is not a hypothetical. It's history.

BTW, another interesting fact (also history), is that most of the world was ruled by dictators for most of history. What we consider democracy has only been around for an comparatively insignificant span of time.

And yes, prosperity was a thing before democracy was. It's almost as if prosperity is not dependent whether or not you get to choose your oppressors and this entire democracy tangent you went on is a red herring.


P.S. @VCheng I saw this image in the thread and don't know why, you came to mind immediately.

 

[villageidiot]

Really isn't.
If you study human history you can see clear shifts in human societies.
For example, societies that adopted farming out competed hunter gather societies. How many hunter gather societies exist today? Not many.
Same with Bronze, then Iron, and now industrial. All societies that that were able to adapt were successful and societies that were unable to adapt were left behind.
Now it's easy to say "well just adapt" but the problem is that those societies and ours as well, have thousands of years of culture, tradition and civilization behind us. To "adapt", you have to give some, if not all of that up.
Japan is a perfect example. They literally had to give up their Samurai and feudal culture. Which they loved no less than we love Islam. They literally fought wars over it, but the right side won and now look at them.
So the question we have to ask ourselves is are we able to adapt or will we forever be in the current state?
Saying "we need to industrialize" is easy, but do we understand what that means?
It means to take power away from religion and become a more secular society. There is no other way.
(now before mullahs try to lynch me, secularism doesn't mean forced atheism, it just means that we stop lynching people for blasphemy)

I see. We need to adapt i.e. drop trou and next thing you know we're conquering the Milky Way.

What kinda industrialization did you see, nigga?

What does having an able and representative government, implementing favorable policies, having abundance of raw materials, capable workforce have to do with 7th century mindset?

 

[VCheng]

I disagree.
I think Pakistan has played the game really well. The thing is that our establishment's goals are not it's people's goal.
The establishment wants free money and war tech from outside. To this end, we are actually one of the best players in the game.
The problem is that this is not the goals that are beneficial to the people, which is why we think we are lousy at it.

What you point out is Pakistan's internal matter as to who gets to determine national priorities and for whose benefit. It is up to Pakistanis to sort this matter out for themselves, and no one else.

 

[Rusty2]

I see. We need to adapt i.e. drop trou and next thing you know we're conquering the Milky Way.

What kinda industrialization did you see, nigga?

What does having an able and representative government, implementing favorable policies, having abundance of raw materials, capable workforce have to do with 7th century mindset?

Tell me you myopic without telling me you are myopic.

As for the last sentence, everything.
We all have the same 24hours in a day.
If we spend it policing who is Muslim and who is not, we can't spend it advancing human kind.
The two are directly related.

 

[VCheng]

BTW, curious as to why you didn't ask me to put up data when I made this claim the first time around.

Because you persisted with your fallacy?

It's called an analogy,

Funny thing is, my statement: "Let anyone who wishes the glory work for it" still applies.

This is not a hypothetical. It's history.

BTW, another interesting fact (also history), is that most of the world was ruled by dictators for most of history. What we consider democracy has only been around for an comparatively insignificant span of time.

And yes, prosperity was a thing before democracy was. It's almost as if prosperity is not dependent whether or not you get to choose your oppressors and this entire democracy tangent you went on is a red herring.

So which one of your favorite dictators shall we test your claims upon first? Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Chavez, Gaddafi, Amin, Zia, or Musharraf, or someone else you care for more than these exemplary dictators?

It is almost as if your mind is already made up to vilify USA, no matter what, which does not matter one bit. USA will do what USA will do. The only problem is that this mindset only gives those who control the poor suffering people in their domains a potent reason to needlessly divert the ire towards external factors so that they do not place the blame where it squarely belongs.

If we spend it policing who is Muslim and who is not, we can't spend it advancing human kind.

Because then we get to move up in the line for heaven before everyone else? Pretty good reason, for some.

 

[Rusty2]

Because then we get to move up in the line for heaven before everyone else? Pretty good reason, for some.

lol yep.
Literally seen people lie cheat and steal, only to turn around and foam at the mouth about OTHER people not being Muslim enough.
These are the same people who think women are whores after they finish masturbating to them.

 

[hyperman]

Funny how you guys are the arbiters of who is Muslim and who is not despite the fact that it is LITERALLY haram to be that.

ok, Answer this straight forward, are you muslim? do you believe in an akhirah? We find out right now. lol

literally no one talked about post war Japan.

You are the one that literally brought up comically simplistic Samurai BS analogies.

I will say again, we are living in a post industrial age and your ideology demands we go back to a preindustrial age.

You have no idea about what you are talking about, or what my outlook is, outside of your own BS conjectures.

we will forever be slaves to the west.

You don't know what slavery is.

Only way forward is to do what Japan, China, and Korea did.

Yeah, and all the poor people in africa should just automatically do what Jeff Bezos did. This is a clownish sociological assessment, its not as simple and it does not take into account the sociological preconditions. China is a different case study, but you really don't seem to know much about the history of Post War Japan, nor Korea for that matter.

 

[hyperman]

What does having an able and representative government, implementing favorable policies, having abundance of raw materials, capable workforce have to do with 7th century mindset?

These people think that people want to be luddites or something? wtf does "7th century mindset" mean? lol, I suspect they also are likely illiterate regarding understanding of how fiqh works. The rest of their generalized jargon is just a ridiculous sociological analysis.

 

[Rusty2]

ok, Answer this straight forward, are you muslim? do you believe in an akhirah? We find out right now. lol

Not that I have anything to prove to you but I am. And I am actually a better Muslim then you since I follow the Quran and sunnah by not pretending like I am the arbiter of who is Muslim and who is not.
But hey, hypocrisy is baked into your ideology so not surprising.

You are the one that literally brought up comically simplistic Samurai BS analogies.

You say it's simplistic but have not shown how.
Simply saying something does not prove it.

You have no idea about what you are talking about, or what my outlook is, outside of your own BS conjectures.

Ah yes the good old strategy of just saying the other person is wrong and then stopping there.
Wonderful.

You don't know what slavery is.

I know that you are impotent enough that the West can bomb and invade any Muslim land at will.
Is that good enough?

Yeah, and all the poor people in africa should just automatically do what Jeff Bezos did. This is a clownish sociological assessment, its not as simple and it does not take into account the sociological preconditions. China is a different case study, but you really don't seem to know much about the history of Post War Japan, nor Korea for that matter.

lol, what?
Where did Bezos come from?
For a super duper holy warrior of Islam, are you sure you are not drunk?
The thing about you people is that not only do you NEVER present counter evidence and arguments, but you think "lol, no" is a perfectly good counter argument.
Must be why it's so easy to convince you people to blow yourself up in mosques and schools.
Anyone with an iota of critical thinking skills would know better.

 

[hyperman]

I follow the Quran and sunnah

Then why would you encourage haram and facilitate it?

You say it's simplistic but have not shown how.

Put simply, the sociological conditions for Pakistan are not the same as Japan, Japan's current economic success is dependent on firstly, Japan already being an industrialized power way before it was every Conquered by the US(idk if you know this, but they kind of ruled half of asia(Korea, Manchuria, taiwan phillipines and even entries into south east asia at a time). Secondly much of Japan's(and Korea's) success is dependent on both access to US markets and US investments as a time where it was critical for the US to prop up a force to counter the Soviet/Communist Hegemony that was growing in East Asia. This element in its developmental path cannot be understated. Not to mention, Modern Japan is really a creation of the US(its not unique in that sense, Germany or should I say West Germany is similarly constructed). You can write a book on this, or go read indepth on the phenomena, If you need any primer, I can probably point you in the right direction. You contrast that with what Pakistan inherited and received, and its night and day(Jinnah BTW requested something similar to the Marshall Plan for Pakistan, but Pakistan really wasn't of consequence(atleast until later on) to the US to flood money into or give preferable access.

Ah yes the good old strategy of just saying the other person is wrong and then stopping there.
Wonderful.

I mean yeah, when met with asinine comments, sometimes that is the only retort, trying to paint me as some sort of Taliban or some shit, without even knowing or inquiring is a bit off putting. Not to mention the lack of understanding of deeper issues whether they be theological or generalized sociological matters.

Is that good enough?

It seems you didn't quite understand the context in which I said "You don't know what slavery is.", might I recommend some primer on what I was eluding to. Black Skin, White Masks by the Marxist philosopher Frantz Fannon is a good read on some of the phenomena.

lol, what?
Where did Bezos come from?

you didn't get the analogy, it was a tongue and cheek retort to your suggestion that "Only way forward is to do what Japan, China, and Korea did." not understand the different sociological phenomena unique to those states, you can't do what they did in the same way, some poor man in africa can't do what Bezos did.

Must be why it's so easy to convince you people to blow yourself up in mosques and schools.
Anyone with an iota of critical thinking skills would know better.

Lol, the fk? see its shit like this is why I don't bother explaining myself in detail, you lack the capacity to understand, and instead respond with imbecilic conjectures.