Aizaz fends off Afghan, US criticism on Haqqani Network

[IceCold]

Of course Pakistan is responsible it's side of Durand line...who else gonna do it for you ? PA was asking for money some days back for protecting its own soil in NW..if that is logical for you ? no doubt your demand for a secure clearly demarcated Durand line is not sincere at all. Tomorrow Afghanistan will rightfully demand it's land back from the Pakistan based on this reason.

Pakistan doesn't care what happens to Afghanistan. All right ? in action and in so many words pakistani establishment and the pakistani awam has proved it. Gen Zia has been quoted during the afghan jihad " Water needs to boil at the right temperature". You have destroyed Afghanistan as it is known, played them on tribal lines, kept them divided...in the name of pakistani interests ? Very wrong interests. You think an Afghani today when he sits and thinks back about the last 25 years of afghani history, he will feel love towards you ? You ARE working against pakistani interests too when you hurt afghani interests. I don't care whether you accept that it or not, the whole world knows.. it was pakistan who introduces good taliban and bad taliban after homegrown tribals became anti pakistani (TTP). before TTP, they were all good talibans. here the good and bad is in respect to pakistan. This is history. read up on this forum. Just because I'm Indian doesn't make my words untrue.

So Pakistan is acting in it's interests. Correct. My point all along. Why the denial in media and to portray Zarb-e-Azb as a defining military operation against all taliban ? This is lying. You agree ?

This is a repeated rant i have heard many times over. No doubt our demand for a secure durand line is sincere and Afghanistan rightfully demand its land back? What rights are you talking about? May i suggest you to go back and learn a few things about that area and how the elders of that area chose Pakistan and not Afghanistan before you debate with me over subject clearly you have no clue as evident from the above post.

As for Pakistan destroying Afghanistan, educate your self on this as well because if anything it was the other way round. How could Pakistan destroy a country which was already invaded by the soviets and than Americans. Yes we saved our interests because the point you keep forgetting is that we share a common border with them and the threat was manifolds with the Russians there looking for warm waters and Afghanistan does not have any and ultimately it had to be Pakistan. Pakistan took the brunt of that war and to date we still are.

As for operation Zarb-e-Azb, i don't need to defend it to an Indian. You are neither here to debate nor learn but with a pre-set mind as already exposed above. So no i don't care what the likes of you think. India or for that matter Indians are not significant in the Afghan theatre. Yes you guys had your fun against Pakistan thanks to Karzai, but his days are numbered and so are India's. Pakistan is a major stake holder in the region and this had been made clear and accepted by all parties.

 

[KalaGhoda]

This is a repeated rant i have heard many times over. No doubt our demand for a secure durand line is sincere and Afghanistan rightfully demand its land back? What rights are you talking about? May i suggest you to go back and learn a few things about that area and how the elders of that area chose Pakistan and not Afghanistan before you debate with me over subject clearly you have no clue as evident from the above post.

As for Pakistan destroying Afghanistan, educate your self on this as well because if anything it was the other way round. How could Pakistan destroy a country which was already invaded by the soviets and than Americans. Yes we saved our interests because the point you keep forgetting is that we share a common border with them and the threat was manifolds with the Russians there looking for warm waters and Afghanistan does not have any and ultimately it had to be Pakistan. Pakistan took the brunt of that war and to date we still are.

As for operation Zarb-e-Azb, i don't need to defend it to an Indian. You are neither here to debate nor learn but with a pre-set mind as already exposed above. So no i don't care what the likes of you think. India or for that matter Indians are not significant in the Afghan theatre. Yes you guys had your fun against Pakistan thanks to Karzai, but his days are numbered and so are India's. Pakistan is a major stake holder in the region and this had been made clear and accepted by all parties.

ok..i am ranting...but you agree that the op is a lie ? right ? why get hot when i'm asking a direct question ? It is a lie, right ?

to learn what exactly from you except that pakistan can use the self interest clause which you accept backfired. i agree with you. pakistan did it for herself. just that you guys act like the guardians of islam, use muhammed's sword as the name of a pakistani all out war which it isn't..what is there to learn ?

 

[Secur]

You have destroyed Afghanistan as it is known, played them on tribal lines, kept them divided...in the name of pakistani interests ? Very wrong interests. You think an Afghani today when he sits and thinks back about the last 25 years of afghani history, he will feel love towards you ?

No, Afghans themselves have destroyed Afghanistan and they are in stone age because of themselves, there is no better way to describe it. I hope you aren't alleging that we invited either the Soviets or the Americans to invade Kabul by holding us responsible for every Afghan mishap. This is more than apparent to anyone who reads the history of that country in detail and not only after the Soviet invasion to score a few browny points and act as the evil Pakistanis had everything to do with it. So, tell me are you aware of the history or is it just the perverted version after the Reds landed in that country? If yes, tell me what do you know about Afghanistan refusal to accept Pakistan's membership at UN, their claims on Pashtunistan, areas of Baluchistan and Gilgit Baltistan, armed incursion into Pakistani territory, mobilization of forces at our border for months in '55, Bajaur invasion in '61, support for Baluchistan insurgency and their alliance with Soviet Union to destabilize our country? So knowing history, what should we think of the Afghans? A brotherly and friendly nation? My country has suffered and continues to suffer because of the border we share with that stone-age country, all the problems the porous border brings and today the refugee problem with millions of them residing here and not willing to go back. Pakistani interference becoming unavoidable due to common border, hostile forces and ethnic issues, dates back only to '80s. How exactly do you expect us not to safeguard our interests with a nation hostile? Just because you are an Indian, doesn't excuse you from now knowing history or knowing only selective parts from it. Fair logic.

 

[KalaGhoda]

No, Afghans themselves have destroyed Afghanistan and they are in stone age because of themselves, there is no better way to describe it. I hope you aren't alleging that we invited either the Soviets or the Americans to invade Kabul by holding us responsible for every Afghan mishap. This is more than apparent to anyone who reads the history of that country in detail and not only after the Soviet invasion to score a few browny points and act as the evil Pakistanis had everything to do with it. So, tell me are you aware of the history or is it just the perverted version after the Reds landed in that country? If yes, tell me what do you know about Afghanistan refusal to accept Pakistan's membership at UN, their claims on Pashtunistan, areas of Baluchistan and Gilgit Baltistan, armed incursion into Pakistani territory, mobilization of forces at our border for months in '55, Bajaur invasion in '61, support for Baluchistan insurgency and their alliance with Soviet Union to destabilize our country? So knowing history, what should we think of the Afghans? A brotherly and friendly nation? My country has suffered and continues to suffer because of the border we share with that stone-age country, all the problems the porous border brings and today the refugee problem with millions of them residing here and not willing to go back. Pakistani interference becoming unavoidable due to common border, hostile forces and ethnic issues, dates back only to '80s. How exactly do you expect us not to safeguard our interests with a nation hostile? Just because you are an Indian, doesn't excuse you from now knowing history or knowing only selective parts from it. Fair logic.

i know all that bob...i know the love is not lost on both the sides. all i'm saying is, this statement and the notion that pakistan is going all out against all islamist extremists is wrong. it is not. i know the history. icecold got hot when i confronted him with that notion and asked him to agree that it is a lie.

 

[KalaGhoda]

Pakistan is carrying out an operation in its tribal areas, so yes we are acting in our interests which you have been trying to portray as a grave sin all along.The ISPR and the foreign secretary's statements are more than clear on the topic of acting against all Taliban, even the United States has been assured of indiscriminately targeting terrorists groups, of particular concern to US was the Haqqani network. Unless of course you have evidence/proof that PA isn't doing so, there is nothing to be gained from this repetitive pointless debate.

it is open knowledge that the majority of fighters left NW before the airstrikes started. let me iterate.

1. talks were an attempt to see who stood where. assasinations and feuds between TTP were done. why ? to seperate the "good for pakistan" and "bad for pakistan" taliban.

2. after the talks, there was a lull...fighters left..haqqanis left too. they crossed over and joined the afghan taliban forces and now, now they already have started targeting the provincial putposts..kabul..

3. after all this, PAF uses airstrikes, evacuates the civillian, cordons of large areas and combs for those left militants. here again, there was a target. uzbekis and uighurs. why ? i need not elaborate. read the attacks by these on pakistan and beloved china. then, a photo op session...journalists were flown in..they took photos and they left believing the all out war story.
the good taliban will come back in time.

what is so complicated in this as to be not understandable because of my nationality ?

 

[karan.1970]

Make up your mind like Agnostic said. If it is our responsibility to not let anyone escape from our side, than you also agree that it was the US and NATO responsibility to not let OBL and Others escape from tora bora and into Pakistan. So while Pakistan is regularly criticize for this, the rules suddenly change when it comes to Pakistan.

No they dont. It was an enormous fcup by USA and NATO to let OBL slip into Pakistan. I dont think Pakistan is criticized for not being able to prevent OBL from entering Pakistan. It gets lambasted for allowing him to stay for 6-7 years meters away from the biggest military academy in Pakistan. 2 totally different things mate.

So in a nut shell and as per Indians it is our responsibility to secure our side of the border and again it is our responsibility to make sure no one escapes from Afghanistan to Pakistan and while NATO and US and Afghanistan are exempted from every thing.

Asked and answered above..

But you are missing the whole point..

Who is bleeding due to terrorists in NW - Pakistan
Who is spending millions of dollars to launch an operation in NW to kill those terrorists - Pakistan
Whose military and civilians are going thru death and distress as a cost of that operation - Pakistan

Why should Pakistan then bank on a 3rd party, which is unreliable at best for the success of this operation.

 

[Secur]

So Pakistan is acting in it's interests. Correct. My point all along. Why the denial in media and to portray Zarb-e-Azb as a defining military operation against all taliban ? This is lying. You agree ?

Pakistan is carrying out an operation in its tribal areas, so yes we are acting in our interests which you have been trying to portray as a grave sin all along.The ISPR and the foreign secretary's statements are more than clear on the topic of acting against all Taliban, even the United States has been assured of indiscriminately targeting terrorists groups, of particular concern to US was the Haqqani network. Unless of course you have evidence/proof that PA isn't doing so, there is nothing to be gained from this repetitive pointless debate.

i know all that bob...i know the love is not lost on both the sides. all i'm saying is, this statement and the notion that pakistan is going all out against all islamist extremists is wrong. it is not. i know the history. icecold got hot when i confronted him with that notion and asked him to agree that it is a lie.

No, you aren't aware of anything before the Soviet invasion, I can deduce this much from your repetitive posts. What was that bit about Pakistan keeping them divided by playing on tribal lines and responsible for every Afghan problem? Nice attempt at evasive manoeuvre though!

Tomorrow Afghanistan will rightfully demand it's land back from the Pakistan based on this reason.

Rightfully demand its land? The land given to the British by the Amir under an agreement and ratified continuously with the Crown by successive Afghan Govts, transferred to the successor state of Pakistan under the International principle of uti possidetis juris and accepted as the border between two countries internationally. Whats the part about " rightfully demand back its land"? Even when Afghanistan was relatively doing well, there was little support for its claims in the areas it demands, I hope I needn't tell where it is now.

 

[karan.1970]

That's funny, because American and Indian commentators never tire of blaming Pakistan for the "escape" of the Taliban, OBL and associated AQ elements from Afghanistan when the US invaded Afghanistan in 2001.

Really, not Pakistan's responsibility. If USA blames Pakistan for not doing something for which USA paid Pakistan in terms of assistance or Aid, that's a different thing.

But, if you really want to stick to your argument, you are essentially validating Pakistan's position over the years that the rise of extremism and terrorism in Pakistan (since 2001) is a result of flawed US military policies, that allowed Taliban and Al Qaeda extremists to escape from Afghanistan and pollute FATA.

Which would be partially correct. However, the rise of militancy is also attributed to the encouragement and safe passage provided by Pakistan to those escaped terrorists in the hope of using them in future as strategic assets in Afghanistan and / or India. Its back to the "Wild animals in the backyard" syndrome. Surely NATO is responsible for influx, but then Pakistan is responsible for nurturing them.

quote="AgNoStiC MuSliM, post: 5971541, member: 4261"]So make up your mind, which one is it?[/quote]
Don't need to. The stand is clear.

 

[IceCold]

ok..i am ranting...but you agree that the op is a lie ? right ? why get hot when i'm asking a direct question ? It is a lie, right ?

to learn what exactly from you except that pakistan can use the self interest clause which you accept backfired. i agree with you. pakistan did it for herself. just that you guys act like the guardians of islam, use muhammed's sword as the name of a pakistani all out war which it isn't..what is there to learn ?

Hot lol hardly. I just had a aftari and was enjoying tea.

As for operation being a lie, it is of no concern or value to me what an Indian thinks about it, the rest of the world does not see it that way. Americans are already increasing cooperation, Russians are too. Pakistan is a major player in the Afghan theatre and continue to remain so irrespective of what India or Karazai wants.

 

[KalaGhoda]

Pakistan is carrying out an operation in its tribal areas, so yes we are acting in our interests which you have been trying to portray as a grave sin all along.The ISPR and the foreign secretary's statements are more than clear on the topic of acting against all Taliban, even the United States has been assured of indiscriminately targeting terrorists groups, of particular concern to US was the Haqqani network. Unless of course you have evidence/proof that PA isn't doing so, there is nothing to be gained from this repetitive pointless debate.


No, you aren't aware of anything before the Soviet invasion, I can deduce this much from your repetitive posts. What was that bit about Pakistan keeping them divided by playing on tribal lines and responsible for every Afghan problem? Nice attempt at evasive manoeuvre though!


Rightfully demand its land? The land given to the British by the Amir under an agreement and ratified continuously with the Crown by successive Afghan Govts, transferred to the successor state of Pakistan under the International principle of uti possidetis juris and accepted as the border between two countries internationally. Whats the part about " rightfully demand back its land"? Even when Afghanistan was relatively doing well, there was little support for its claims in the areas it demands, I hope I needn't tell where it is now.

ohh ..no evasive manuevering...i know the history. yes, played along divisive lines after soviets left. thats when afghanistan could have said no to further jihad and gotten up. what did you guys do ? backed the hardline islam there.

the world was coming into its own after the soviet breakup. afghanisthan has US backing. it really could have turned itself around inspite of its history so far. do you not agree ? the harm pakistan did for its self interests cannot be belittled seen in the larger context. any afghan problem maybe an exaggeration. but this move is bigger than what pakistanis accept.

and forget about the land and emir and british and 1947 and 1948 stuff..i am really bored by them plus an ak47 knocks them outta park everyday. why bother ?

 

[Secur]

it is open knowledge that the majority of fighters left NW before the airstrikes started. let me iterate.

1. talks were an attempt to see who stood where. assasinations and feuds between TTP were done. why ? to seperate the "good for pakistan" and "bad for pakistan" taliban.

2. after the talks, there was a lull...fighters left..haqqanis left too. they crossed over and joined the afghan taliban forces and now, now they already have started targeting the provincial putposts..kabul..

3. after all this, PAF uses airstrikes, evacuates the civillian, cordons of large areas and combs for those left militants. here again, there was a target. uzbekis and uighurs. why ? i need not elaborate. read the attacks by these on pakistan and beloved china. then, a photo op session...journalists were flown in..they took photos and they left believing the all out war story.
the good taliban will come back in time.

what is so complicated in this as to be not understandable because of my nationality ?

Let me correct it for you, it is alleged that the fighters left NW before the operation started. Even if it was true, there is little that could have been done to prevent their escape specially when the area-in-question wasn't under the control of Govt of Pakistan before the operation started and one of the principal reasons why the operation was started. Talks were uselessly carried out in vain and known from the first day to fail merely to pacify a section of the society which was hell bent on negotiations/dialogues/peaceful solutions with the terrorists , it cleared the long held misconceptions with the religious crowd that peace can be achieved without force, even when the talks were being done, the surgical strikes were being carried out to maintain the pressure on TTP. The fighting you speak of was between two groups of Taliban, both of which acted against the state of Pakistan, if the fighting between them was due to ISI, the agency sure did us good. There was never a lull, never a break, as soon as the negotiations failed, the operation was started.

 

[KalaGhoda]

Let me correct it for you, it is alleged that the fighters left NW before the operation started. Even if it was true, there is little that could have been done to prevent their escape specially when the area-in-question wasn't under the control of Govt of Pakistan before the operation started and one of the principal reasons why the operation was started. Talks were uselessly carried out in vain and known from the first day to fail merely to pacify a section of the society which was hell bent on negotiations/dialogues/peaceful solutions with the terrorists , it cleared the long held misconceptions with the religious crowd that peace can be achieved without force, even when the talks were being done, the surgical strikes were being carried out to maintain the pressure on TTP. The fighting you speak of was between two groups of Taliban, both of which acted against the state of Pakistan, if the fighting between them was due to ISI, the agency sure did us good. There was never a lull, never a break, as soon as the negotiations failed, the operation was started.

it is not alleged, you know it, it has been covered in media too. even in pakistani media.

i agree to the home crowd part. and yes agencies did good too. they did make one faction try to kill another. leadership was divided on the question of leadership of ttp. all that is agreed to.

when did the action start ? after karachi attack. when it was proven to the home crowd that uzbekis are in inside pakistan and they are targeting pakistan. in fact the PA would have delayed the operation if it could for two reasons : 1. the aforesaid agencies were doing good. given time, they could have solved the problem without direct military action. or reduced the threat of a bigger enemy. 2. the pro pak taliban would have suffered no losses, they wouldn't have had to choose sides, move base, condemn bad talibans of ttp publicly and get into it in general.

i know it...you too must have known it. fairly logical things right ?

 

[Secur]

it is not alleged, you know it, it has been covered in media too. even in pakistani media.

i agree to the home crowd part. and yes agencies did good too. they did make one faction try to kill another. leadership was divided on the question of leadership of ttp. all that is agreed to.

when did the action start ? after karachi attack. when it was proven to the home crowd that uzbekis are in inside pakistan and they are targeting pakistan. in fact the PA would have delayed the operation if it could for two reasons : 1. the aforesaid agencies were doing good. given time, they could have solved the problem without direct military action. or reduced the threat of a bigger enemy. 2. the pro pak taliban would have suffered no losses, they wouldn't have had to choose sides, move base, condemn bad talibans of ttp publicly and get into it in general.

i know it...you too must have known it. fairly logical things right ?

No, it is alleged, period. Had there been hard proof, the U.S. would have shut off its assistance for the ongoing operation, a long time ago. They are the ones who are the most concerned about the Haqqani network and I see no reason for them to continue giving us money if it isn't been acted against. The Americans have nothing to get from the operation against TTP, that isn't something they are interested in.

Karachi attack was the turning point, the final push needed to convince both the ignorant sections of the public and the naive Govt that an operation has become unavoidable, the internal divide was only good and effective upto a point, you cant expect the Taliban to destroy themselves completely merely by infighting. Why exactly call them pro-Pakistan if they were acting against the country in the first place by siding with TTP? If they weren't acting against the country, why do they need to choose sides within TTP? Does it make sense to you?

 

[KalaGhoda]

hey i've typed an answer but it doesn't let me post says sneaky url in my answer. no url..only typed words. how do i post it ? i'm on phone. on browser.

US is effing off....and they have their drones against haqqani..what is the US doing today when the afghan countryside is seeing heavy fighting after zRbeazb ? it is not going to care...anyway like i said the whole thing was done in the pretext that talks failed and as soon as they failed, govt. gave the nod for military action, basically the reason you gave me. but what happened behind the scene was what i wrote down as 1,2,3 above.

the haqqani network never was with pak taliban known as tehrike taliban pakistan. it was singled out by US as most of the NATO attacks by them. it was, is and will remain pro pakistani taliban whom pakistan needs today more than ever. against india. against ANA. pak taliban asked for their help. they're both fighting for an islamic pak and islamic afghanistan.

so, to save them the face of choosing between the clear factions of afghan and pak taliban, they left because they knew in one way or another, war is coming.

if not for karachi attack pak army would have not started the ops. remember, there was a considerable gap of more than a month after talks failed and karachi attack. there was a ceasefire which pakistani forces were honouring though pak taliban were not. remember ? that month made all the difference. after karachi, the jingoism forced the govt to act. before zarb e azb was launched, aerial strikes had started a day before. some reporter confirmed on twitter with news link that they were done on uighyurs on chinese behest. after the station knife attack.

so, you would have me believe pakistan would kill the haqqanis ? come on ! i'm not that naive.

 

[Secur]

US is effing off....and they have their drones against haqqani..what is the US doing today when the afghan countryside is seeing heavy fighting after zRbeazb ? it is not going to care

The problem is that it cares, that reality didn't change back then and it hasn't changed now. U.S. has always wanted to secure and stabilize the Afghan Govt, maintain its presence in the region and collaboration with us is the only way to do so. If the Yanks tied the assistance for the present operation with action against Haqqanis, there's no way it will keep quiet if that isn't happening.

if not for karachi attack pak army would have not started the ops. remember, there was a considerable gap of more than a month after talks failed and karachi attack. there was a ceasefire which pakistani forces were honouring though pak taliban were not. remember ? that month made all the difference. after karachi, the jingoism forced the govt to act. before zarb e azb was launched, aerial strikes had started a day before. some reporter confirmed on twitter with news link that they were done on uighyurs on chinese behest. after the station knife attack.

Aerial attacks continued at the time which you are as a lull or gap, because there was none available for peace talks from Taliban due to infighting over TTP's leadership.