A Theory On Partition

[Cliftonite]

If it weren't for the British, there would be no such country as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. What there would have been is dozens of competing small states vying with each other for control of resources.

I am not sure when this fantasy of there being an "India" that was partitioned and ruined by the Brits arose, whilst in reality there never was such a thing. I guess people always need a fantasied nostalgic view of the past to fall back to, because they have done little to make their present and future better.

The only reason why there was a partition of "British India" is because British administration and military united a disparate group of people together, so they could better exploit the resources of this land. They were under no obligation to integrate as conquerors, you should be thankful that they left you half functioning countries that still rely on British era institutions to function.

P.S. This is not an apology of the crimes British colonists committed. I just have an abhorrence towards deluded people who blame others or live in some misinformed glorious past.

Till a few years ago the ruling structure of India was descended from the Lutyens Delhi cadres. Maybe that's why India was more successful. Now that the ruling class is coming from the real cow belt India they will totally scmcrew it up just like the culture they come from. Pakistan too was good till the 60s when it was ruled by Muslim Leaguers trained in the British system. When the feudals took over, it went to shit.

 

[Pakistani E]

Indian Congress and Hindu rightwing groups did not want Muslims to be independent, but wanted to rule over large swathes of Muslim territory bordering Afghanistan and the other in Bengal.

They were both living in a fantasied version of the past in the mythical bharat that was united by culture/religion etc. This is a whole subcontinent of people, and if I am honest, if things were allowed to occur naturally, it would probably have at least 10 modern day nation states today.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

If it weren't for the British, there would be no such country as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. What there would have been is dozens of competing small states vying with each other for control of resources.

I am not sure when this fantasy of there being an "India" that was partitioned and ruined by the Brits arose, whilst in reality there never was such a thing. I guess people always need a fantasied nostalgic view of the past to fall back to, because they have done little to make their present and future better.

The only reason why there was a partition of "British India" is because British administration and military united a disparate group of people together, so they could better exploit the resources of this land. They were under no obligation to integrate as conquerors, you should be thankful that they left you half functioning countries that still rely on British era institutions to function.

P.S. This is not an apology of the crimes British colonists committed. I just have an abhorrence towards deluded people who blame others or live in some misinformed glorious past.

I doubt this.

The British probably saved us in the end. Muslim power was long in decline. But for the British, the Marhattas would have probably ruled the roost with a few vassals here and there. Nizam was content with a tiny state and they would have had to behave themselves being landlocked and all.

The Afghan invasions had also been checked by then. If the Marhattas were not overthrown by the British, India would have probably had much of the entire subcontinent under a Hindu confederacy. The British (albeit harmful) prevented that liberating several Muslim vassals and appointing numerous Muslim princes all over the country. With the limited Maratha rule only, they extended their cultural influence far and wide - such that many Muslim lands reverted permanently to Hindu rule (Benares for instance).

 

[Soumitra]

For Pakistan or the Islamic world to help you out, you need to be consolidated rather than scattered all over India. Think of strategic migration during the next 2 decades, preferably closer to Pakistan or Kashmir. If not that, then the southern states which will give you access to sea. I would say east but Bangladesh doesn't seem to be in a position to help you, they're too dependent on India. Sooner or later you will have to take weapons against India, I hope it doesn't come to that.

Do you see the big problems with your plan.

You have to think about the logistics of moving such a large population. How will you get Karnataka Muslims, Bihari Muslims, UP Muslims, Kerala Muslims, etc to come together to one place? They are the poorest members of the society. They will all give up whatever little livelihood they have and move 100s or even 1000s of KM to setup their lives once again?

Secondly If 250 million Muslims start flooding one state or region they will have to displace the Hindus who already live in the region. Do you seriously think that the Indian government - whether BJP or Congress will let this happen. Do you think that RSS will sit quietly when it is happening

Thirdly let's assume that by some miracle they all come in one place. Where will they get the weapons or training to take on the Indian Army because obviously India will not just voluntarily give up the land for a second partition

And if a war does break out with Pakistani support wouldn't it be easier for India to concentrate all their power to just one small area. And if push comes to shove and there is a danger of that part breaking away wouldn't India just nuke the area?

 

[Cliftonite]

Do you see the big problems with your plan.

You have to think about the logistics of moving such a large population. How will you get Karnataka Muslims, Bihari Muslims, UP Muslims, Kerala Muslims, etc to come together to one place? They are the poorest members of the society. They will all give up whatever little livelihood they have and move 100s or even 1000s of KM to setup their lives once again?

Secondly If 250 million Muslims start flooding one state or region they will have to displace the Hindus who already live in the region. Do you seriously think that the Indian government - whether BJP or Congress will let this happen. Do you think that RSS will sit quietly when it is happening

Thirdly let's assume that by some miracle they all come in one place. Where will they get the weapons or training to take on the Indian Army because obviously India will not just voluntarily give up the land for a second partition

And if a war does break out with Pakistani support wouldn't it be easier for India to concentrate all their power to just one small area. And if push comes to shove and there is a danger of that part breaking away wouldn't India just nuke the area?

Who knows what the geopolitical situation may be 50 years from now? Here's a qweschan for you chinto....when poor tribal Naxals and 10-12 million Kashmiris can give you such a hard time, do you really think you stand a chance against 250 millions Muslims? After all we did wrest away two children from Bharat Mata's uterus in the 40s. It's not that impossible

 

[Soumitra]

Who knows what the geopolitical situation may be 50 years from now? Here's a qweschan for you chinto....when poor tribal Naxals and 10-12 million Kashmiris can give you such a hard time, do you really think you stand a chance against 250 millions Muslims? After all we did wrest away two children from Bharat Mata's uterus in the 40s. It's not that impossible

Hard times let me burst your bubble

Kashmir is a Muslim majority region, supported by Pakistan and still under India's control.

My question is regarding the logistics of transferring 250 million people to one particular region. Whether they will win Independence is a secondary matter

 

[Cliftonite]

Hard times let me burst your bubble

Kashmir is a Muslim majority region, supported by Pakistan and still under India's control.

My question is regarding the logistics of transferring 250 million people to one particular region. Whether they will win Independence is a secondary matter

Lol like I'm stupid enough that I would tell you all the possibilities of how they can move? Much can be done. Yaad rakhna this is not a mere 15 million Uyghur population against 1.2 billion Han Chinese population. It's a 250-300 million Muslim population against 950 million Hindus. Did you guys ever think when you were genociding the Sikhs that some of them would emigrate to Canada and become a headache for you guys? You can bullshit however much you want that the Punjabi Sikhs don't want Khalistan but you admit that Kartarpur, Khalistan 2020, Jagmeet Singh were all a huge cause of concern for India. Imagine the headache a genocide of Muslims will be for your shithole. The Sikhs had no one to speak for besides themselves, the Muslims have the entire Islamic world supporting them.

And don't for a minute think that you are anywhere close to a superpower. If not the Muslims then China will surely show your place. You have no one to turn besides Nepal. Remember the Muslims of India have 52 countries to turn to. Just a few tweets by Sheikha Qassemi and you guys were concerned. Imagine what would happen if someone started playing Syria in your country by the backing of Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia?


So my dear pazheet, don't exceed your bounds. I can write a whole essay of how things can be screwed up in vast ethnically divided country like India. You never know what can happen in the next 50 to 100 years. You can deny it all you want but Islam and Muslims scare you. Imagine if we allied with China (all of us) and maybe even Russia. Imagine the wreck we can do to your country by the time this century ends.

 

[Soumitra]

Lol like I'm stupid enough that I would tell you all the possibilities of how they can move? Much can be done. Yaad rakhna this is not a mere 15 million Uyghur population against 1.2 billion Han Chinese population. It's a 250-300 million Muslim population against 950 million Hindus. Did you guys ever think when you were genociding the Sikhs that some of them would emigrate to Canada and become a headache for you guys? You can bullshit however much you want that the Punjabi Sikhs don't want Khalistan but you admit that Kartarpur, Khalistan 2020, Jagmeet Singh were all a huge cause of concern for India. Imagine the headache a genocide of Muslims will be for your shithole. The Sikhs had no one to speak for besides themselves, the Muslims have the entire Islamic world supporting them.

And don't for a minute think that you are anywhere close to a superpower. If not the Muslims then China will surely show your place. You have no one to turn besides Nepal. Remember the Muslims of India have 52 countries to turn to. Just a few tweets by Sheikha Qassemi and you guys were concerned. Imagine what would happen if someone started playing Syria in your country by the backing of Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia?


So my dear pazheet, don't exceed your bounds. I can write a whole essay of how things can be screwed up in vast ethnically divided country like India. You never know what can happen in the next 50 to 100 years. You can deny it all you want but Islam and Muslims scare you. Imagine if we allied with China (all of us) and maybe even Russia. Imagine the wreck we can do to your country by the time this century ends.

Khwaab dekhna achaa hota hai

 

[Cliftonite]

Khwaab dekhna achaa hota hai

My sweet pazheet, remember it took the Holocaust for Israel to be born. Hitler and his cronies may have chuckled at the gas ovens but their actions directly led to the Jews getting their homeland after 1500 years of exile. Who was the winner in the end? Dont get in over yourself darling, 20-30 years are nothing in the global scale of things. Muslims have ruled over the subcontinent for a 1000 years, we can surely wait a hundred years more before wresting back control. But remember Islam and Muslims are a force to be reckoned with. 900 million Hindus concentrated in one single nation are no match against 1.8 billion (2 billion by 2050) of us in 52 countries spread out over 3 continents. You know that, your BJP overlords know it and it scares you deep down.

 

[Pakistani E]

I doubt this.

The British probably saved us in the end. Muslim power was long in decline. But for the British, the Marhattas would have probably ruled the roost with a few vassals here and there. Nizam was content with a tiny state and they would have had to behave themselves being landlocked and all.

The Afghan invasions had also been checked by then. If the Marhattas were not overthrown by the British, India would have probably had much of the entire subcontinent under a Hindu confederacy. The British (albeit harmful) prevented that liberating several Muslim vassals and appointing numerous Muslim princes all over the country. With the limited Maratha rule only, they extended their cultural influence far and wide - such that many Muslim lands reverted permanently to Hindu rule (Benares for instance).

This is an interesting subject for sure, but I fear we are going towards alternative history right about now. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but it's definitely an interesting exercise.

Can't really comment on the rest of the subcontinent, but I am not certain that the Marathas or the Sikhs would have been able to hold on to what is now most of Pakistan permanently. The Marathas were too quarrelsome internally to ever have the administration to hold on to such a vast territory for long. The Sikhs also did not have any decent unifying leader after Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and they seemed to have collapsed in to internal fighting soon after. The Brits there only sped up this process.

I am also basing my assumptions on the rise of nationalism in Europe and it's spread to other areas, which would have definitely affected the people living in the subcontinent. I might make a separate thread expounding my ideas on what the subcontinent would look like today if the British were unable to hold most/any of the subcontinent for long, but thank you for your input.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

This is an interesting subject for sure, but I fear we are going towards alternative history right about now. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but it's definitely an interesting exercise.

Can't really comment on the rest of the subcontinent, but I am not certain that the Marathas or the Sikhs would have been able to hold on to what is now most of Pakistan permanently. The Marathas were too quarrelsome internally to ever have the administration to hold on to such a vast territory for long. The Sikhs also did not have any decent unifying leader after Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and they seemed to have collapsed in to internal fighting soon after. The Brits there only sped up this process.

I am also basing my assumptions on the rise of nationalism in Europe and it's spread to other areas, which would have definitely affected the people living in the subcontinent. I might make a separate thread expounding my ideas on what the subcontinent would look like today if the British were unable to hold most/any of the subcontinent for long, but thank you for your input.

Marathas and Sikhs were divided AFTER their first wars against the British.

Their quarrels before were insignificant and they themselves resolved them with the Marathas creating a confederacy!

And both the powers were instrumental in re-establishing all the temples in the North anew.

Your point regarding nationalism is probably true, but even then Islam would probably had met its end in much of North India. Coincide this with the decline of the Ottoman power as well and we see an existential crisis for Islam in the subcontinent.

So yes, the British did in the end save Islam. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan also thought along the exact same lines.

that the Marathas or the Sikhs would have been able to hold on to what is now most of Pakistan permanently.

Much of Balochistan would probably had shifted towards Iran. Same with the NWFP shifting towards Afghanistan.
I am speaking about Sindh and Punjab - they would have been Sikhi/Hindufied. The Sikh empire for instance DID go on a massive conversion drive. Same with the Marathas in the Gangetic plains, thousands reverted.

The Brits on the other hand, fortunately DID NOT care about religion. Only money and loot.
They looted everyone without discrimination.

I might make a separate thread expounding my ideas on what the subcontinent would look like today if the British were unable to hold most/any of the subcontinent for long, but thank you for your input.

Please do. It will be very interesting. Tag me, kindly.