A Glimpse of Chinese EVs: the dominant power to drive the world into the future of transportation

[nang2]

This isn't the only debt that Tesla has.

So you basically have assumed Tesla is now debt ridden and we should wait to see how it gets busted by its massive debt, right? So far, all you have given us is the number 2 billion. Do you have more evidences up to your sleeve?

So no one's *** get hauled out of Shanghai, right? That's what I suppose, cos people comes and goes every day, they may stay as long as they like without work, cos we are one country. If you choose to work here forever, sooner or later you become Shanghai citizen, just get in line, there's open & clear policy, NO denial.

Yes Shanghai is very expensive, is that anyone's fault? On contrary Kunming is cheap, should anyone take credit? It's natural. Jakarta is the most expensive city in Indonesia, similarly New York, London, Tokyo, ain't that normal? We are a free country where you freely choose where to work & live (just comply with policy), just do some maths prior to taking action for one's own sake. The high paid jobs in Shanghai are not reserved for Shanghai citizens/residents, neither reserved exclusively for migrants.

Haha, I don't know if I should call it Freudian slip or a misnomer. What is "Shanghai citizen"? Is Shanghai a country? It seems like it, isn't it? If you want to stay there and make a home, you have to apply first the "visa" or temporary residency (暂住证). Then you need to apply for the permanent residency or green card (户口). Only thing that is missing is the step of applying for citizenship when you declare your loyalty to the city of Shanghai.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Haha, I don't know if I should call it Freudian slip or a misnomer. What is "Shanghai citizen"? Is Shanghai a country? It seems like it, isn't it? If you want to stay there and make a home, you have to apply first the "visa" or temporary residency (暂住证). Then you need to apply for the permanent residency or green card (户口). Only thing that is missing is the step of applying for citizenship when you declare your loyalty to the city of Shanghai.

You believe Hukou is better known to non-Chinese instead of concept of "citizen"? Have I emphasized we are one country? About the due process of changing Hukou, absolutely yes, you are asking the new city to cover you with their fiscal budget, and you graciously relieve your previous city's fiscal burden, right? No problem, get in line and let bureaucrats in both cities work things out, how can any decent person spreading lies about denial?

 

[nang2]

You believe Hukou is better known to non-Chinese instead of concept of "citizen"? Have I emphasized we are one country? About the due process of changing Hukou, absolutely yes, you are asking the new city to cover you with their fiscal budget, and you graciously relieve your previous city's fiscal burden, right? No problem, get in line and let bureaucrats in both cities work things out, who says denial?

Actually permanent residency is better known to non-Chinese. I am just telling you that China is the only country in the world that its citizens have to apply for that. It has successfully divided the whole country into many mini "countries". Chinese bureaucrats may be so busy that they need such a system. I would say they are simply lazy.

 

[Shotgunner51]

China is the only country in the world that ...

You may apply such description to other matters as well, say the only country (once) that cross 1.4 billion population, the only country that adopts economic reform since 1978, the only country made up of primarily Chinese, the only with five thousand years ... There are many "only", you pick the one the suits your agenda? Hardly logical isn't it? Unless your logic is since it's not seen in other countries, it must be bad? I thought people treasure innovation, no?

If it's an innovation, like economic reform, SOE, one country two system ... they are born imperfect but being improved steadily, how about that?

 

[F-22Raptor]

What does this trash brand has to do with Chinese EV thread?

I told you last year Tesla was going to $1T+ market cap, and you said never. That it was going to under 200. Tesla reached $1T today. Eat crow

 

[Shotgunner51]

I believe Tesla is mostly vaporware being sold on the premise of a lifestyle to wear worshippers. It is not an economical car, high quality car, and the company has made multiple false promises.

I won't disagree with that, in fact that's the key point. Consumerism is not about the tech, not even about quality, it's about marketing. What does a LV bag has? Or a burger? Or a cup of Starbucks? Perceived quality, brand association, packaging, industrial design, etc, are among many elements of marketing, an area that engineering-centric Chinese manufacturers usually overlook. The lack of marketing skills has plagued China not just in EV sector but in many areas, see how poor the SOE market their defence products? Names that can't be remembered, bad PPTs/videos, no stories, even the BGM music never match. Just like today many FMCG marketing professionals were ex-employees of P&G, Coca-Cola, LVMH and such, Tesla will be a major source of talents for Chinese EV manufacturers.

It's China's top-level national strategy to promote EV, aka working against gasoline which has existed for decades, it takes excellent marketing to grow the sector, battle-hardened (vs Detroit, UAW, Wall Street short-sellers) Elon Musk obviosuly has mastered the trade craft. Bringing in Tesla won't destroy China, see how foreign brands reshape US auto industry, China government can only have far weapons in toolbox to steer our industry in the right direction.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I won't disagree with that, in fact that's the key point. Consumerism is not about the tech, not even about quality, it's about marketing. What does a LV bag has? Or a burger? Or a cup of Starbucks? Perceived quality, brand association, packaging, industrial design, etc, are among many elements of marketing, an area that engineering-centric Chinese manufacturers usually overlook. The lack of marketing skills has plagued China not just in EV sector but in many areas, see how poor the SOE market their defence products? Names that can't be remembered, bad PPTs/videos, no stories, even the BGM music never match. Just like today many FMCG marketing professionals were ex-employees of P&G, Coca-Cola, LVMH and such, Tesla will be a major source of talents for Chinese EV manufacturers.

It's China's top-level national strategy to promote EV, aka working against gasoline which has existed for decades, it takes excellent marketing to grow the sector, battle-hardened (vs Detroit, UAW, Wall Street short-sellers) Elon Musk obviosuly has mastered the trade craft. Bringing in Tesla won't destroy China, see how foreign brands reshape US auto industry, China government can only have far weapons in toolbox to steer our industry in the right direction.

Of course Tesla won't destroy China. Foreign Tesla investors are paying for Tesla to buy Chinese motors, batteries, circuit boards, metal plating, etc and growing their recognition as suppliers.

Marketing works until it doesn't. When fake vaporware goes against real engineering in actual competition, it gets destroyed, just like Boring Company can barely dig a parking garage tunnel for 1 mile without $50+ million USD when they promised a transit system.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Of course Tesla won't destroy China. Foreign Tesla investors paying for Tesla to buy Chinese motors, batteries, circuit boards, metal plating, etc.

Exactly, don't forget Shanghai Tesla is also an export hub.

Marketing works until it doesn't. When fake vaporware goes against real engineering in actual competition, it gets destroyed, just like Boring Company can barely dig a parking garage tunnel for 1 mile without $50+ million USD when they promised a transit system.

Yes and no. In B2B business, market plays a smaller role, in B2C, marketing is central could even decides viability. Marketing is not just letting people know, but let people like, take actions, and be loyal enough to buy again. You will hear terms like positioning, pricing (the myth of selling cheap gives you volume could be very wrong), differentiation, sales channels (Tesla and NIO employs direct sale, that's different from gasoline cars). If you startup a consumer business you will sure know, investors don't wanna hear your tech, they wanna hear how you market, only when your marketing sound right then your tech or whatever supporting become applicable. The chance of a salesman running a successful restaurant is far higher than of a chef.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Exactly, don't forget Shanghai Tesla is also an export hub.

Yes and no. In B2B business, market plays a smaller role, in B2C, marketing is central could even decides viability. Marketing is not just letting people know, but let people like, take actions, and be loyal enough to buy again. You will hear terms like positioning, pricing (the myth of selling cheap gives you volume could be very wrong), differentiation, sales channels (Tesla and NIO employs direct sale, that's different from gasoline cars). If you startup a consumer business you will sure know, investors don't wanna hear your tech, they wanna hear how you market, only when your marketing sound right then your tech or whatever supporting become applicable. The chance of a salesman running a successful restaurant is far higher than of a chef.

I often buy and evaluate industrial products at a technical level. It is very simple for me: does this product perform exactly as specified or better, safely, with low cost of ownership, within budget, and delivered within stated lead time?

From my point of view, I would never, ever buy a Tesla. They do not perform as specified, they are not safe, they have high cost of ownership, they often go beyond budget with after market add-ons yet claim full functionality, and almost none of their products deliver within stated lead times. A single one of these problems can sink a product, let alone all 5.

 

[Shotgunner51]

I often buy and evaluate industrial products at a technical level. It is very simple for me: does this product perform exactly as specified or better, safely, with low cost of ownership, within budget, and delivered within stated lead time?

From my point of view, I would never, ever buy a Tesla. They do not perform as specified, they are not safe, they have high cost of ownership, they often go beyond budget with after market add-ons yet claim full functionality, and almost none of their products deliver within stated lead times. A single one of these problems can sink a product, let alone all 5.

Yes that's normal, B2B business is rational, B2C isn't, it's emotional, impulsive.

In consumer business, target audience is no longer about Demographics, that's so 70's, its about Psychographics, as you have just demonstrated. It is Chinese EV marketer's job to understand you, reach you and sell to you, that's marketing. I decided to add an EV to my garage earlier this year because it's becoming a fashion, even a sign of progressiveness (Elon Musk's image) or socio-consciousness, I ended up buying a NIO ES6 at almost twice the price of a Tesla, NIO must have done its marketing right.

If I have to name another company doing good marketing, perhaps I will say Zeekr (a spinoff brand from Geely), though it's a bit early to tell cos they haven't delivered yet, they need users experience/feedback to complete the cycle.

 

[Kai Liu]

That Xpeng P5 3.5 system is also still in BETA by the company and right now the date is "sometime in 2022" (vaporware) for actual buyers to see it.

Meanwhile there's multiple threads here on PDF showing Tesla owners posting daily videos of their car driving with the FSD BETA on local roads.

As Elon Musk has stated the issue with LIDAR is NOT the expense. If you are going to replicate a vision system like human's use (we don't shoot lasers out of our eyes) there is no reason to rely on LIDAR. All it does is make you take shortcuts in your camera's abilities which in the long term is not what you want.

He said he expects ALL companies to eventually ditch LIDAR as their vision systems get better.

Haha, funny excuses, vision camera is really dinosaur tech, and you can check the cost of LIDAR through the years to see Elon Musk is lying... A single unit of LIDAR costs more than 70,000 USD just a few years ago, and takes lots of space, and now Huawei makes LIDARs just cost hundred USD per unit. Of course Tesla is going to say it is not the expense, but its dinosaur tech is more advanced...what else can he say? Vision camera is crap? LMAO... BTW, the 5G powered true autonomous driving will be first realized in China too, with our most comprehensive 5G network, here again, you used the dinosaur tech just like Tesla does:

Huawei L4 autonomous driving:

Compared to this, Tesla's 'auto driving' on an ~empty street or the highway is like a kid...lol...

 

[GS Zhou]

Nice! Recently I added an ES6 to my garage. I'm sure you know the new Shanghai policy, so the total spend is only RMB 538,400 (~PKR 14.7M), no tax required, free license plate, excellent value!

View attachment 787659

Did you do the battery leasing. i.e. BaaS? Considering the high pricing, I guess no?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

$2 billion debt for a $1T company. I would say don't hold your breath.

Tesla already paid it back.

Tesla Paid Off $1.4B China Gigafactory Loan Early, Confirms Musk

Tesla has a reputation for paying off loans early, so it comes as no surprise that it already paid off a $1.4 billion loan for its Shanghai Gigafactory.

insideevs.com

 

[Stranagor]

Nio backed EV startup Hycan launched the Z03 crossover for $20,000

Hycan is a new EV brand in China. It was founded in 2018 as a joint venture between state-owned GAC (Guangzhou Auto) and Nio. While Nio's cars are built

carnewschina.com

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Marketing works until it doesn't. When fake vaporware goes against real engineering in actual competition, it gets destroyed,

Can we now finally call the BYD Han EV destroyed then? It's been on sale since July 2020 and struggles to break 8000 a month! Sales are flat. It's being completely destroyed by both the Model 3 AND Model Y sales. There are no signs of a sales breakout...unless the Blade 3.0 somehow nudges people.

This is a snippet of China car sales from Jan 1st to September 30th. 100% EV's in BOLD.

BYD Han EV 58,251 / 9mo = 6,472/month <- That's HORRIBLE!! This is BYD a big name in electric cars...not some nobody...and this is their top selling EV!! How many years have they been selling EV's in China now?? 10 years maybe?

How much longer does this "real engineering" marvel need to prove itself? Another 10 years???

Now keep in mind this is just Tesla's sales in China:
Tesla Model 3 avg = 12,430/mo
Tesla Model Y avg = 10,325/mo

Tesla has sold over 625,000 EVs woldwide as of Jan-Sept 30th.