A Foreign Minister In Uniform Gen Raheel Shareef

[Folkindia]

Okay arjun, we'll just agree to disagree.

Ps.1999 was destined to be a 'black year ' for india, if it wasn't for the 'brilliance' of the businessman-leader, currently at the helm.

Failing to take into account the international response which eventually forced us to end the war is another blunder by Musharraf.

 

[Folkindia]

Again exactly as i expected, more ranting (appears to be one of your token skills) and less refuting/negating my argument. Based off that premise, the 'grapevine' is inferring you have nothing to offer by way of constructing a sound counter-narrative.

I repeat, i'm supposed to take the narrative of a few indians/ex-indian military professionals and some sell out Pakistani members, who cannot differentiate between a military a success and a political defeat. Fact remains, india's regular army of around 700k, were engaging with a negligible number of NLI and some one thousand mujahideen fighters. Therefore, Pakistan was restricted to what it could use in terms of i.e Air Force. The regular army did not engage, so the Air Force did not come into play, nor did heavy equipment, unlike their counterparts.

Two indian fighter jets, violated the air space and were brought down. Pakistan still occupies some of those peaks, i remember india running out of wood to burn their army. Calling upon South Africa to deliver 155mm howitzer shells, "litening pods" from israel (containing an infra-red camera, for night attacks) in an emergency. Had it not been for Nawaz Sharif's political- cynical- fiasco, it would have been a black year for india.

India gave out a medal to honour a 'dead soldier' (desperate face saving attempt) who was found to be alive. Why should anyone believe what indians say, just look at the recent 'terror boat' debacle. They have no credibility and lack the key capacities for critical thinking, analysis and being impartial.

Ps. Just to reiterate, 1000 mujahideen fighters and a negligible level of NLI, engaged 700k indian Army (just imagine if Pakistan had parity in terms of the Army and Air Force, in any of the wars, india wouldn't even exist, your motherland hides behind a numerical advantage and greater technology) utilising heavy equipment, in conjunction with the indian Air Force, (despite this your body count was as such, that there was no wood to burn them). Pakistan still occupies some of the strategic peaks, it's just as well for india, that Nawaz Sharif was at the helm.

As i stated previously, when an indian cannot validate his claims, he resorts to personal attacks. Now I'll allow you to seek 'solace' in a false victory. I'm laughing at you and your nation as i type, for being fooled for a third time. You brand yourself as a 'super power' but lost every war barring 1971 (three vs one situation). (47), (62 China), (65) and (99). "Blown to smithereens", indeed your inept army was and always has been.

Now run to your peers and have him them tell you more fallacious accounts of valour and 'feel-good' fairytales- wrapped up in acute-denial..all of which is a figment of your compatriots imagination. Good day sanjay.

What is there to refute, you are already are an all knowing expert who has the over bearing baggage of declaring all Indians incapable of objectivity and respected pakistani members on the forum as sell outs if they present any opinion that differs from you. Now I am not the almighty to change your mind, so whats the point in any discourse.

As far as kargil is concerned, All your fancy jets and tanks stood frozen when your Brave (I repeat Brave) soldiers were being blown to smithereens by IAF jets and IA arty, if you can take solace in such victories then sure. you are more than welcome to celebrate such victories. I wish you many more

The only victory from kargil came to Musharraf, and only defeat to the pakistan's democracy. other than that not much to say. most of it is out there.

 

[MilSpec]

Again exactly as i expected, more ranting (appears to be one of your token skills) and less refuting/negating my argument. Based off that premise, the 'grapevine' is inferring you have nothing to offer by way of constructing a sound counter-narrative.

I repeat, i'm supposed to take the narrative of a few indians/ex-indian military professionals and some sell out Pakistani members, who cannot differentiate between a military a success and a political defeat. Fact remains, india's regular army of around 700k, were engaging with a negligible number of NLI and some one thousand mujahideen fighters. Therefore, Pakistan was restricted to what it could use in terms of i.e Air Force. The regular army did not engage, so the Air Force did not come into play, nor did heavy equipment, unlike their counterparts.

Two indian fighter jets, violated the air space and were brought down. Pakistan still occupies some of those peaks, i remember india running out of wood to burn their army. Calling upon South Africa to deliver 155mm howitzer shells, "litening pods" from israel (containing an infra-red camera, for night attacks) in an emergency. Had it not been for Nawaz Sharif's political- cynical- fiasco, it would have been a black year for india.

India gave out a medal to honour a 'dead soldier' (desperate face saving attempt) who was found to be alive. Why should anyone believe what indians say, just look at the recent 'terror boat' debacle. They have no credibility and lack the key capacities for critical thinking, analysis and being impartial.

Ps. Just to reiterate, 1000 mujahideen fighters and a negligible level of NLI, engaged 700k indian Army (just imagine if Pakistan had parity in terms of the Army and Air Force, in any of the wars, india wouldn't even exist, your motherland hides behind a numerical advantage and greater technology) utilising heavy equipment, in conjunction with the indian Air Force. (Your body count was as such, that there was no wood to burn them). Pakistan still occupies some of the strategic peaks, it's just as well for india, that Nawaz Sharif was at the helm.

As i stated previously, when an indian cannot validate his claims, he resorts to personal attacks. Now I'll allow you to seek 'solace' in a false victory. I'm laughing at you and your nation as i type, for being fooled for a third time. You brand yourself as a 'super power' but lost every barring 1971 (three vs one situation). (47), (62 China), (65) and (99). "Blown to smithereens", indeed your inept army was and always has been.

Now run to daddy and have him tell you more fallacious accounts of valour and 'feel-good' fairytales- wrapped up in acute-denial..all of which is a figment of your compatriots imagination. Good day sanjay.

Whose sanjay? are you just copy pasting crap from other threads?

 

[Folkindia]

Well to be frank, you did not read my post (which i typed out) thoroughly, so i copied and pasted my previous one again, along with some extra-statements in my endeavour to 'alleviate' some of your many delusions.

Ps. You're Sanjay. Just emphasising your indian-ethnicity, hence the inability to construct a sound-counter narrative.

Now refute my claims, 'stop beating about the bush'. Otherwise, accept the realities of your motherland being humiliated in 1999. Here comes your rant.... Wait for it..

Whose sanjay? are you just copy pasting crap from other threads?

 

[MilSpec]

Well to be frank, you did not read my post (which i typed out) thoroughly, so i copied and pasted my previous one again, along with some extra-statements in my endeavour to 'alleviate' some of your many delusions.

Good bait Achmed, I'll bite.

Again exactly as i expected, more ranting (appears to be one of your token skills) and less refuting/negating my argument. Based off that premise, the 'grapevine' is inferring you have nothing to offer by way of constructing a sound counter-narrative.

What were the Pakistani objectives of the kargil intrusion? I am sure it was not capturing one obscure peak. Kargil was part of baltistan district and was taken in 1948 by India from Pakistani invasion. According to the Shimla agreement (ii) InJammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line. Siachein did not classify as a violation as the there was no demarcated recognized position in along NJ9842 but existed as LOC for kargil, batalik drass, kaskar etc.

Again I repeat, i'm supposed to take the narrative of a few indians/ex-indian military professionals and some sell out Pakistani members, who cannot differentiate between a military a success and a political defeat.

That is the entire premise of objectivity, you don’t take anyones narrative blindly (which you seem to subscribe to), you read, deconstruct, analyze without prejudice and arrive to objective finding without bias. Oscar, horus, pfpilot, jungi joe shearer, rescue ranges, irfan baloch and lots of members here offer their objective evaluations on the all theater of conflicts worth discussing. Feel free to read their remarks.

Now coming to military success part your post in a part reflects the poor planning, shoddy risk evaluation and confused execution. What were the exact objectives of the kargil war, and what were you capable of achieving. Were you able to cut off Srinagar supply route to leh? Were you able to cut off supply route to siachin? All you were able to achive brilliantly was to surprise Indian forces by occupying empty position, these were not captured by ousting Indian forces but sneeked into. If that was the objective of entire kargil episode, then sure there is no argument that it was a success

Fact remains, india's regular army of around 700k, were engaging with a negligible number of NLI and some one thousand mujahideen fighters.

Your own elected prime minister refutes those figure, Please present some references to the above claim as primary mainstay of Indian forces were the northern command, 3 infantry and select few regiments.

Therefore, Pakistan was restricted to what it could use in terms of i.e Air Force. The regular army did not engage, so the Air Force did not come into play, nor did heavy equipment, unlike their counterparts.

Therefore… that is an admission that Pakistan before mounting the attack as always had no Idea how far India will escalate this, same operation brasstack and Gibraltar syndrome came back to bite Pakistan again. So lets see where we are, in the last three statements, your military did not achieve the needed objectives, you intentionally violated Shimla agreement, your military kept your civilian government in dark, from recent revelation by Pakistani general, rest of the military command was also kept in dark, your military did not align the political sphere to the needed objectives, and grossly miscalculated the indian response.


Pakistan restrictions: why were there such restrictions? You send your soldiers to fight in Indian territory and don’t provide them air cover, supply lines, troop rotation. Shouldn’t such planning deemed treason instead of making them presidents? What do you buy those shiny toys for?

Two indian fighter jets, violated the air space and were brought down. Pakistan still occupies some of those peaks, i remember india running out of wood to burn their army. Calling upon South Africa to deliver 155mm howitzer shells, "litening pods" from israel (containing an infra-red camera, for night attacks) in an emergency.

Yes we garnered all the support that we could, we got sat images too from one of your allies, but then who was stopping you to get what you needed for your objectives, not just in kargil but in all other conflicts. Does Pakistan always fight it’s wars with rules of engagement decided by it’s adversary? Our foreign policy allows us to consolidate all the support needed in time of need, and we did that successfully, whereas your f16’s couldn’t fly CAP due to shortage of spares. How shameful is that right there?

Had it not been for Nawaz Sharif's political- cynical- fiasco, it would have been a black year for india.

The only fiasco was for Pakistan as it’s democracy yet again succumbed to military dictatorship. All was not rosy on Indian side as it exposed our weaknesses, lack of equipment and finally kicked the leadership to modernize the forces.

India gave out a medal to honour a 'dead soldier' (desperate face saving attempt) who was found to be alive. Why should anyone believe what indians say, just look at the recent 'terror boat' debacle. They have no credibility and lack the key capacities for critical thinking, analysis and being impartial.

What a facepalm moment when Pakistanis blame India, of deceit. It was your foreign minister, prime minister and for a while your ex COAS pleading to the world that the intrusion was perpetrated by Kashmiri mujhjideens , which turned out to be Active Pakistani military soldiers and officers (btw whose dead bodies were declined by your establishment). As far as medal is concerned, you might not now this that there were hundreds of false KIA’s in most of the wars, there always exists such room for error, especially when dealing with the second largest standing army on the face of this planet.

Ps. Just to reiterate, 1000 mujahideen fighters and a negligible level of NLI, engaged 700k indian Army (just imagine if Pakistan had parity in terms of the Army and Air Force, in any of the wars, india wouldn't even exist,

Lets see the reference to prove the above figures. We have never considered Pakistan as an existential threat, and doesn’t matter what the force levels Pakistan maintain, it will still hold the same nuisance value as it has since it’s inception.

your motherland hides behind a numerical advantage and greater technology) utilising heavy equipment, in conjunction with the indian Air Force, (despite this your body count was as such, that there was no wood to burn them).

Did we stop your fatherland from using any of the heavy equipment? Wars are fought to be won, India does that everytime with all tools at it’s disposal. And that is what we did, we did the same at brasstacks, at gibraltar, if anything kargil was a missed opportunity for India.

Pakistan still occupies some of the strategic peaks, it's just as well for india, that Nawaz Sharif was at the helm.

And was that the objective of Pakistan to initiate kargil. now to address the peak issue, India did not hold Point 5353 before the war broke out, so yes you did capture a peak or so, which has strategic importance. But we hold 18 peaks in the vicinity which we did not sneak into but, recaptured from your infiltrators, army of terrorists whatever you claim them to be.

As i stated previously, when an indian cannot validate his claims, he resorts to personal attacks. Now I'll allow you to seek 'solace' in a false victory. I'm laughing at you and your nation as i type, for being fooled for a third time. .

It's good to laugh, I am amused that such gory chapters in our history brings a smile to your face.

You brand yourself as a 'super power' but lost every war barring 1971 (three vs one situation). (47), (62 China), (65) and (99). "Blown to smithereens", indeed your inept army was and always has been.

What were your objectives in 1947 again and what did you achieve?
Were you able to liberate anything in 47-no
"........" - 65 - no
"........" - 71 - no
"........" - 99 - no


Now lets look at 1965, not sure if you understand Urdu but may be these gentelemtn might be able to set the record straight.

Lets here from few Pakistani Gentelmen, I think there narrative of the war differs from you to, but do take a few moments before you declare the "Sellouts"

Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui




71 that you concede as a defeat, actually showed better fight in the west pak than 65.

Now run to daddy and have him tell you more fallacious accounts of valour and 'feel-good' fairytales- wrapped up in acute-denial..all of which is a figment of your compatriots imagination. Good day sanjay.

I’ll leave that job to your Dad, who I hope is not sanjay!

 

[Folkindia]

That was by far the worst response, that i've ever been given. You have provided absolutely nothing to counter a single point of mine. Instead you continuously waste my precious time, by reading through my posts in cursory fashion and perpetually respond with a glorified rant. I don't rely on the accounts of 'infallible' members here, to validate my arguments unlike you, given that you cannot construct a sound argument on your own accord.

Most of your points harp on about how Pakistan wasn't able to achieve it's objective. In answer to your comments, Nawaz Sharif's- cynical decision, didn't allow for a prolonged conflict, which led to the military success (while the conflict lasted), being translated into a political defeat. Had the conflict, lasted longer and had Pakistan's 'offensive' started to falter (which wasn't the case) we would have witnessed the Regular army and Air Force coming to the fore and consolidating the successful capturing of indian territory, i guess the limited duration- proved to be indispensable for the indian army, Saving it from further global-embarrassment.

Pakistan had captured some strategic peaks (in particular point- 5353, which allows for an unimpeded view of around 25km of the national highway, that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil, which could easily be cut off by Pakistan, in the event of a future-untoward incident. This was all later passed as, "wasn't part of our territory" by the indians, to abate the embarrassment and horror unraveling before them as they failed to dislodge their valiant counterparts) and has currently fortified them, (built/established supply lines also, thus consolidating those positions). The successful capturing of such peaks, lays testament to the trimuph and bravery of the NLI and the some 1000 mujahideen fighters whom succesfully engaged 700k indian troops, backed by the Air Force and heavy equipment, (whom ordered emergency equipment, from israel and South Africa in what could be described as a frenzy, as the ignominy of being humiliated, manifested by each passing day), which also, 'holds water' to my argument, that the offensive from the 'Pakistani' side was extremely successful. It inspires pity, that the indian armed forces, in conjunction with the Air Force could do little to stop the offensive, which mind you, illustrated/exposed their security levels, as they failed to detect the 'intrusion', by your army's own admission.

Pakistan did not "grossly miscalculate the indian response", rather india had 'grossly' underestimated the success of the 'Pakistani intrusion' and the damage caused/dealt by some negligent levels of NLI, coupled with 1000 (approx) mujahideen fighters, whom were not under the 'umbrella' of the army, nor the Air Force. The whole conflict exposed india's combat readiness, whom failed to engage with some 1000+ plus adversaries and still managed to run out of wood to bury their dead. Do not rant at me, for your militaries shortcomings.

Moreover, "ex COAS pleading to the world that the intrusion was perpetrated by Kashmiri mujahideens, which turned out to be Active Pakistani military soldiers and officers". Once again, you are exhibiting delusions of grandeur, as you cannot find a suitable counter-narrative, rather meekly, rely upon twisting the facts of history, to align with your fallacious argument, 'tone down the rhetoric' sanjay, play on facts and not ignorance. Those brave souls you allude to were the NLI, that were later inducted into the army as regulars, given their valour/success, who fought alongside the brave 1000 (approx) mujahideen's. Pakistan could not utilise it's Air Force, given that it was an informal attack and not directly from the regular army. Glad you acquiescently agree that, Pakistan successfully captured those peaks, your army of 700k backed by the Air Force could do little to nothing - by way of ousting them, you just exposed the ineptness of your own army, congratulations. The only time Pakistan's regular army had engaged their indian counterparts, was when two indian jets violated Pakistani air space and were brought down immediately, much to the despair of the indian public and IAF. Successfully repelling the desperate indian attempt.

However, it is no 'state secret' the Pakistani regularly army was poised to engage the indian's if the situation had escalated further (but given, Pakistan was in complete control, even though they were engaging a 700k army backed by the IAF, thus, did not see it fit to go 'all out', so to speak, given the mounting international pressure and duplicity of the current Prime Minister). Additionally, it's just as well for india, Nawaz Sharif had sold out Pakistan, turned out to be their 'silver lining', (an opportunity for the indian media to entertain some 'face-saving-exercises' to ease the trepidations of the indian nation and quell the embarrassment of the armed forces), much like he is today, given his india-based-assets. Hence, the military success being translated into a political defeat.

Furthermore, "All you were able to achieve brilliantly was to surprise Indian forces by occupying empty position, these were not captured by ousting Indian forces but sneeked into" wholly describes your siachen escapades. You summed it up perfectly. Pakistan embarrassed india during the entire duration of the 1999 conflict. I found it abhorrent, as did many, when the indians conveniently dished out medals to honour some of the dead, whom were later found to be alive. Total failure and embarrassment for india and you being favourably disposed towards india- would of course conveniently deny this. Keep living in acute-denial, appears to be your national trait.

Ps. In the first war, Pakistan had successfully thwarted the indian army and conquered 1/3 of Kashmir. In 1965, Pakistan had humiliated india beyond comprehension, the much larger, more advanced indian army/air force and navy were utterly humiliated by a much smaller force- with a special mention to the Air Force domain. In utter desperation, india begged the UNSC to request pakistan to withdraw from the conquered land and India would resolve the Kashmir issue. However, as expected India did not honour it's commitment.

This all begs the question about parity. Break-free from the shackles of a pungent-bias, think logically/rationally and address the issue impartially. Ask yourself the following. What if Pakistan had parity in the naval, army and Air Force facets, respectively. What would have happened to your inept army?, have you ever asked yourself that?!, of course you haven't, as you're an absolutely delusional- biased buffoon.(Ask yourself that when you sleep tonight in your second hand-bed). Even after being heavily outnumbered, in every war, the endowed Pakistani military, not only managed to defeat this 'formidable adversary', but embarrassed it in the process. You should commend your Pakistani counterparts. Not live on 'fairy-tales' Sanjay.

Finally. You forwarded me accounts of retired professionals, do not fail to overlook that the internet is brimming with/is inundated with a plethora of accounts from retired- indian military professionals accepting defeat, in regards to the wars (but i didn't see it fit to post them). There is a degree of subjectivity about this. Which leads me to address your service time, nobody cares about your personal experience, your view/take of what manifested, you are an indian, you cannot be trusted to be impartial, therefore you will be inherently, favourably disposed towards india. What's more 'perception isn't always reality', successfully negating your "i was there and this is what i saw" claims. In any case, the grim reality remains, you lost, but given acute-denial, narcissism, comprise of your national traits, you'll conveniently lean on denial, as a 'face-saving exercise'. Besides why should you be trusted Sanjay?! Your nation, is the nation of Bollywood, drama/stories often overlap with reality in your country, as was the case of the 'terror boat' debacle. Unlike you i do not rely on fellow members/ some attention seeking retired- military professionals that can be found across the vast realm of the internet, in order to validate my argument. Fact remains you lost in 47, 62, 65 and in particular 99 - complemented your rich history of losing. Super power who?!.

My official stance: Military success, translated into a political defeat by Nawaz Sharif. No surprises there. Now if wish to be consoled, find both of your fathers. Pakistan may have lost Bangladesh (three-on-one situation, so you cannot take credit), you lost Pakistan, Bangladesh and a significant portion of Kashmir, in all amounting to around 1,000,000km (squared). You walked into that one Sanjay. Ouch! Stay miserable and equally delusional!

Good bait, I'll bite.

What were the Pakistani objectives of the kargil intrusion? I am sure it was not capturing one obscure peak. Kargil was part of baltistan district and was taken in 1948 by India from Pakistani invasion. According to the Shimla agreement (ii) InJammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line. Siachein did not classify as a violation as the there was no demarcated recognized position in along NJ9842 but existed as LOC for kargil, batalik drass, kaskar etc.






That is the entire premise of objectivity, you don’t take anyones narrative blindly (which you seem to subscribe to), you read, deconstruct, analyze without prejudice and arrive to objective finding without bias. Oscar, horus, pfpilot, jungi joe shearer, rescue ranges, irfan baloch and lots of members here offer their objective evaluations on the all theater of conflicts worth discussing. Feel free to read their remarks.

Now coming to military success part your post in a part reflects the poor planning, shoddy risk evaluation and confused execution. What were the exact objectives of the kargil war, and what were you capable of achieving. Were you able to cut off Srinagar supply route to leh? Were you able to cut off supply route to siachin? All you were able to achive brilliantly was to surprise Indian forces by occupying empty position, these were not captured by ousting Indian forces but sneeked into. If that was the objective of entire kargil episode, then sure there is no argument that it was a success







Your own elected prime minister refutes those figure, Please present some references to the above claim as primary mainstay of Indian forces were the northern command, 3 infantry and select few regiments.





Therefore… that is an admission that Pakistan before mounting the attack as always had no Idea how far India will escalate this, same operation brasstack and Gibraltar syndrome came back to bite Pakistan again. So lets see where we are, in the last three statements, your military did not achieve the needed objectives, you intentionally violated Shimla agreement, your military kept your civilian government in dark, from recent revelation by Pakistani general, rest of the military command was also kept in dark, your military did not align the political sphere to the needed objectives, and grossly miscalculated the indian response.


Pakistan restrictions: why were there such restrictions? You send your soldiers to fight in Indian territory and don’t provide them air cover, supply lines, troop rotation. Shouldn’t such planning deemed treason instead of making them presidents? What do you buy those shiny toys for?





Yes we garnered all the support that we could, we got sat images too from one of your allies, but then who was stopping you to get what you needed for your objectives, not just in kargil but in all other conflicts. Does Pakistan always fight it’s wars with rules of engagement decided by it’s adversary? Our foreign policy allows us to consolidate all the support needed in time of need, and we did that successfully, whereas your f16’s couldn’t fly CAP due to shortage of spares. How shameful is that right there?




The only fiasco was for Pakistan as it’s democracy yet again succumbed to military dictatorship. All was not rosy on Indian side as it exposed our weaknesses, lack of equipment and finally kicked the leadership to modernize the forces.








What a facepalm moment when Pakistanis blame India, of deceit. It was your foreign minister, prime minister and for a while your ex COAS pleading to the world that the intrusion was perpetrated by Kashmiri mujhjideens , which turned out to be Active Pakistani military soldiers and officers (btw whose dead bodies were declined by your establishment). As far as medal is concerned, you might not now this that there were hundreds of false KIA’s in most of the wars, there always exists such room for error, especially when dealing with the second largest standing army on the face of this planet.








Lets see the reference to prove the above figures. We have never considered Pakistan as an existential threat, and doesn’t matter what the force levels Pakistan maintain, it will still hold the same nuisance value as it has since it’s inception.







Did we stop your fatherland from using any of the heavy equipment? Wars are fought to be won, India does that everytime with all tools at it’s disposal. And that is what we did, we did the same at brasstacks, at gibraltar, if anything kargil was a missed opportunity for India.






And was that the objective of Pakistan to initiate kargil. now to address the peak issue, India did not hold Point 5353 before the war broke out, so yes you did capture a peak or so, which has strategic importance. But we hold 18 peaks in the vicinity which we did not sneak into but, recaptured from your infiltrators, army of terrorists whatever you claim them to be.



It's good to laugh, I am amused that such gory chapters in our history brings a smile to your face.







What were your objectives in 1947 again and what did you achieve?
Were you able to liberate anything in 47-no
"........" - 65 - no
"........" - 71 - no
"........" - 99 - no


Now lets look at 1965, not sure if you understand Urdu but may be these gentelemtn might be able to set the record straight.

Lets here from few Pakistani Gentelmen, I think there narrative of the war differs from you to, but do take a few moments before you declare the "Sellouts"

Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui




71 that you concede as a defeat, actually showed better fight in the west pak than 65.








I’ll leave that job to your Dad, who I hope is not sanjay!

 

[RescueRanger]

I am proud of our COAS! He is worth 10 Choti and Bari Tinds!

 

[Folkindia]

@Horus @waz @Jungibaaz @Oscar This gentleman reported me for nothing. He could not refute any of my claims, thus saw it fit to report me. Check our posts within this forum. I jokingly referred to this gentleman as 'Sanjay', merely trying to insinuate he is indian and therefore cannot be trusted to be impartial. He cheaply responded with insulting my father and when i reciprocated, he conveniently reports me. As i have stated previously, once an indian member, cannot validate his claims, he resorts to personal attacks, upon reciprocation, they report you. Exactly what happened here. I would not take much notice of him as he failed to counter my arguments, thus reported me as a 'face saving' exercise. I do not appreciate his attempt at getting back at me, by taking advantage of this 'analyst position' and leaving me a negative rating. Could you kindly read his posts, he is far from innocent. Thanks mods.

Ps. Can we do something about this gentleman, whom spews venom against Pakistan, owning to his indian-ethnicity?

there is no counter your delusional facts and figures. but do visit forum regulations.

 

[Folkindia]

Quote yourself also.
You conveniently failed to copy and paste your own verbal- tirade which you directed against me and Pakistan. Just admit it, you failed to address any of my points in the least degree, then decided to report me, as you could not provide a sound counter narrative. If you was so deeply offended, why did it take you this long to report me?! When i totally annihilate your delusional- premise regarding the (1999) conflict, you conveniently report me then, instead of addressing my points objectively. Thankfully, the Mods will see right through your antics.

@waz @Horus @Jungibaaz @Oscar

Ps. You can keep changing your comments. To come across as innocent. Let's not pretend you refrained from making - any cheap comments. I will of course change mine also, to square it.

Back to the topic, counter my points. You perpetually avoid any counter-narratives and post glorified rants instead. So address my points.. We can keep the 'below the belt' discourse aside. So here is your chance to counter my argument regarding the 1999 issue, when india was sufficiently embarrassed and made to look totally inept- by the NLI/Mujahideen fighters- engaging your 700k army, utilizing heavy equipment and the Air Force.

Now run to daddy and have him tell you more fallacious accounts of valour and 'feel-good' fairytales- wrapped up in acute-denial..all of which is a figment of your compatriots imagination. Good day.


Real classy

 

[MilSpec]

Quote yourself also. You conveniently failed to copy and paste your own comments against me and Pakistan. Just admit it, you failed to address my points, the decided to report me, as you could not provide a sound counter narrative. If
You was so deeply offended, why did it take you this long to report me?! When i totally annihilate your delusional- premise regarding the (1999) conflict, you conveniently report me then, instead of addressing my points objectively.

Ps. You can keep changing your comments. To come across as innocent. Let's not pretend you refrained from making - any cheap comments. I will of course change mine also, to square it.

Back to the topic, counter my points. You perpetually avoid any counter-narratives and post glorified rants instead. So address my points.. We can keep the below the belt stuff aside. So go for it.

That is the point dear. You present force levels without reference. You present events without references. You call your own ex mil accounts as attention seeking exercise. What is there to refute?

 

[WishLivePak]

Now run to daddy and have him tell you more fallacious accounts of valour and 'feel-good' fairytales- wrapped up in acute-denial..all of which is a figment of your compatriots imagination. Good day sanjay.

of course you haven't, as you're an absolutely delusional- biased buffoon.(Ask yourself that when you sleep tonight in your second hand-bed).


Now if wish to be consoled, find both of your fathers.


Real classy

You're insulting him.

 

[MilSpec]

You're insulting him.

those were his posts dear.

 

[Folkindia]

Your referencing, comprises of youtube and Wikipedia. You asked me to rely upon members of this forum, instead of constructing your own sound, counter-narrative.

Ps. Why should i rely upon the testimonies of previous members here and some retired- military professionals. As if humans are immune to being wrong and are 'infallible'.

So back to the topic, counter my arguments or accept, you cannot. Pakistan had great military success in 1999, which was translated into a political defeat by the current Prime Minister.

That is the point dear. You present force levels without reference. You present events without references. You call your own ex mil accounts as attention seeking exercise. What is there to refute?

He branded me as 'retarded', 'dim-witted', named me a 'false flagger', made a comment about my father amongst other things, he's conveniently altered some of his posts. So you cannot find them.

Ps. Was constantly trolling and spewing erroroneous comments against Pakistan, got utterly annhilated by my argument about the Kargil-conflict and took advantage of his position within this forum and reported me.

You're insulting him.

Back to the topic. I request you to carefully read over my post again. This time, refute my points with an unbiased, objective evidence source, that encompasses the holistic view, whilst addressing the issue of neutrality. Acquiescently, most of the accounts you seem to ascribe as 'admissible', seem to be driven from a personal bias, thus cannot be attributed to being objective and impartial.

Most of your points harp on around the idea that Pakistan wasn't able to achieve it's objective. In answer to your comments, Nawaz Sharif's- cynical decision, didn't allow for a prolonged conflict, which led to the military success (while the conflict lasted), being translated into a political defeat. Had the conflict, lasted longer and had Pakistan's 'offensive' started to falter (which wasn't the case) we would have witnessed the Regular army and Air Force coming to the fore and consolidating the successful capturing of indian territory, i guess the limited duration- proved to be indispensable for the indian army, Saving it from further global-embarrassment.

Pakistan had captured some strategic peaks (in particular point- 5353, which allows for an unimpeded view of around 25km of the national highway, that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil, which could easily be cut off by Pakistan, in the event of a future-untoward incident. This was all later passed as, "wasn't part of our territory" by the indians, to abate the embarrassment and horror unraveling before them as they failed to dislodge their valiant counterparts) and has currently fortified them, (built/established supply lines also, thus consolidating those positions). The successful capturing of such peaks, lays testament to the trimuph and bravery of the NLI and the some 1000 mujahideen fighters whom succesfully engaged 700k indian troops, backed by the Air Force and heavy equipment, (whom ordered emergency equipment, from israel and South Africa in what could be described as a frenzy, as the ignominy of being humiliated, manifested by each passing day), which also, 'holds water' to my argument, that the offensive from the 'Pakistani' side was extremely successful. It inspires pity, that the indian armed forces, in conjunction with the Air Force could do little to stop the offensive, which mind you, illustrated/exposed their security levels, as they failed to detect the 'intrusion', by your army's own admission.

Pakistan did not "grossly miscalculate the indian response", rather india had 'grossly' underestimated the success of the 'Pakistani intrusion' and the damage caused/dealt by some negligent levels of NLI, coupled with 1000 (approx) mujahideen fighters, whom were not under the 'umbrella' of the army, nor the Air Force. The whole conflict exposed india's combat readiness, whom failed to engage with some 1000+ plus adversaries and still managed to run out of wood to bury their dead. (As saw live on the news at the time, (Pakistani and indian) thus you cannot claim otherwise).

Moreover, "ex COAS pleading to the world that the intrusion was perpetrated by Kashmiri mujahideens, which turned out to be Active Pakistani military soldiers and officers". Once again, you are exhibiting delusions of grandeur, as you cannot find a suitable counter-narrative, rather meekly, rely upon twisting the facts of history, to align with your fallacious argument, 'tone down the rhetoric', play on facts and not ignorance. Those brave souls you allude to were the NLI, that were later Inducted into the army as regulars, given their valour/success, who fought alongside the brave 1000 (approx) mujahideen. Pakistan could not utilise it's Air Force, given that it was an informal attack and not directly from the regular army. Glad you acquiescently agree that, Pakistan successfully captured those peaks, your army of 700k backed by the Air Force could do little to nothing - by way of ousting them, you just exposed the ineptness of your own army, congratulations. The only time Pakistan's regular army had engaged their indian counterparts, was when two indian jets violated Pakistani air space and were brought down immediately, much to the despair of the indian public and IAF. Successfully repelling the desperate indian attempt.

However, it is no 'state secret' the Pakistani regularly army was poised to engage the indian's if the situation had escalated further (but given, Pakistan was in complete control, even though they were engaging a 700k army backed by the IAF, thus, did not see it fit to go 'all out', so to speak, given the mounting international pressure and duplicity of the current Prime Minister). Additionally, it's just as well for india, Nawaz Sharif had sold Pakistan out, turned out to be their 'silver lining', (an opportunity for the indian media to entertain some 'face-saving-exercises' to ease the trepidations of the indian nation and quell the embarrassment of the armed forces), much like he is today, given his india-based-assets. Hence, the military success being translated into a political defeat.

Furthermore, "All you were able to achieve brilliantly was to surprise Indian forces by occupying empty position, these were not captured by ousting Indian forces but sneeked into" wholly describes your siachen escapades. You summed it up perfectly. Pakistan embarrassed india during the entire duration of the 1999 conflict. I found it abhorrent, as did many, when the indians conveniently dished out medals to honour some of the 'dead', whom were later found to be 'alive' (your answer to negate this fact, "it was accidental, given the size of our army" ..Your own compatriots and neutral bodies will laugh at such tripe, that is your own personal view and is wholly-inconceivable). With regards to all of the above, it is therefore needless to say, the 1999 Kargil-conflict- proved to be a total failure in regards to the indian intelligence, further the failure to dislodge/oust your counterparts and stands as a testament to the indian army's embarrassment in 1999. In addition, you being favourably disposed towards india- would of course conveniently deny this. Acute-denial as it's called.

Ps. In the first war, Pakistan had successfully thwarted the indian army and conquered 1/3 of Kashmir. In 1965, Pakistan had humiliated india beyond comprehension, the much larger, more advanced indian army/air force and navy were utterly humiliated by a much smaller force- with a special mention to the Air Force domain. In utter desperation, india begged the UNSC to request pakistan to withdraw from the conquered land and India would resolve the Kashmir issue. However, as expected India did not honour it's commitment.

This all begs the question about parity. Break-free from the shackles of a pungent-bias, think logically/rationally and address the issue impartially. Ask yourself the following. What if Pakistan had parity in the naval, army and Air Force facets, respectively. What would have happened to your inept army?, have you ever asked yourself that?!, of course you haven't, as you choose to avoid the parity issue. Even after being heavily outnumbered, in every war, the endowed Pakistani military, not only managed to defeat this 'formidable adversary', but sufficiently embarrassed the perennial foe in the process. You should commend your Pakistani counterparts and not ridicule their valour.

Finally. You forwarded me accounts of retired professionals, do not fail to overlook that the internet is brimming with/is inundated with a plethora of accounts from retired- indian military professionals accepting defeat, in regards to the wars (but i didn't see it fit to post them). There is a degree of subjectivity about this. Which leads me to address your service time and personal experience. Your personal view/take of what manifested, cannot be attributed to admissible evidence, as being an indian, you cannot be trusted to be impartial, therefore you will be inherently, favourably disposed towards india. What's more 'perception isn't always reality', successfully negating your "i was there and this is what i saw" claims. In any case, the grim reality remains, you lost, but given acute-denial, narcissism, comprise of your national traits, you'll conveniently lean on denial, as a 'face-saving exercise'.

India is the nation of Bollywood, drama/stories often overlap with reality in your country, as was the case of the 'terror boat' debacle. Unlike you i do not rely on fellow members/ certain attention seeking retired- military professionals that can be found across the vast realm of the internet (from both sides i.e indians ascribed Gen. Pal as an attention seeker, exactly why i didn't post the youtube link which conveyed his confession about india losing, i knew it would be passed as nonsense by you and your compatriots), in order to validate my argument. Fact remains you lost in 47, 62, 65 and in particular 99 - complemented your rich history of losing. Super power who?!

My official stance: Military success, translated into a political defeat by Nawaz Sharif. No surprises there. Pakistan may have lost Bangladesh (three-on-one situation, so you cannot take credit), you lost Pakistan, Bangladesh and a significant portion of Kashmir, in all amounting to around 1,000,000km (squared). You walked into that one Ouch!

This is all common knowledge regarding the conflict. I.e Pakistan conquered peaks (you accepted), 2 downed indian-fighter planes (you accepted) it is basic knowledge that the NLI and mujahideen featured from the 'Pakistani side' (you accepted, as you did not challenge it), india handing medals to honour some of the 'fallen soldiers' that were found to be alive (you accepted- read your post), india ordering emergency equipment from israel and South-Africa (you didn't challenge it, in other words agreed with it), india losing Pakistan, Bangladesh and a healthy chunk (around 53%) of Kashmir, all of which amounts to around 1,000,000km(squared) (source any geography book).
In sight of this what are you asking me to reference?! When you accept it's all true.

Do not, provide me with anymore youtube videos and Wikipedia as your references or accounts from previous members, respectfully leave your personal experience aside also, as 'perception isn't always reality'.

What is your counter- narrative to my entire post? (MOST of which you
accept already. Read over your own posts).

those were his posts dear.

 

[WishLivePak]

those were his posts dear.

Then he's insulting you.

Your referencing, comprises of youtube and Wikipedia. You asked me to rely upon members of this forum, instead of constructing your own sound, counter-narrative.

Ps. Why should i rely upon the testimonies of previous members here and some retired- military professionals. As if humans are immune to being wrong and are 'infallible'.

So back to the topic, counter my arguments or accept, you cannot. Pakistan had great military success in 1999, which was translated into a political defeat by the current Prime Minister.



He branded me as 'retarded', 'dim-witted', named me a 'false flagger', made a comment about my father amongst other things, he's conveniently altered some of his posts. So you cannot find them.

Ps. Was constantly trolling and spewing erroroneous comments against Pakistan, got utterly annhilated by my argument about the Kargil-conflict and took advantage of his position within this forum and reported me.




Back to the topic. I request you to carefully read over my post again. This time, refute my points with an unbiased, objective evidence source, that encompasses the holistic view, whilst addressing the issue of neutrality. Acquiescently, most of the accounts you seem to ascribe as 'admissible', seem to be driven from a personal bias, thus cannot be attributed to being objective and impartial.

Most of your points harp on around the idea that Pakistan wasn't able to achieve it's objective. In answer to your comments, Nawaz Sharif's- cynical decision, didn't allow for a prolonged conflict, which led to the military success (while the conflict lasted), being translated into a political defeat. Had the conflict, lasted longer and had Pakistan's 'offensive' started to falter (which wasn't the case) we would have witnessed the Regular army and Air Force coming to the fore and consolidating the successful capturing of indian territory, i guess the limited duration- proved to be indispensable for the indian army, Saving it from further global-embarrassment.

Pakistan had captured some strategic peaks (in particular point- 5353, which allows for an unimpeded view of around 25km of the national highway, that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil, which could easily be cut off by Pakistan, in the event of a future-untoward incident. This was all later passed as, "wasn't part of our territory" by the indians, to abate the embarrassment and horror unraveling before them as they failed to dislodge their valiant counterparts) and has currently fortified them, (built/established supply lines also, thus consolidating those positions). The successful capturing of such peaks, lays testament to the trimuph and bravery of the NLI and the some 1000 mujahideen fighters whom succesfully engaged 700k indian troops, backed by the Air Force and heavy equipment, (whom ordered emergency equipment, from israel and South Africa in what could be described as a frenzy, as the ignominy of being humiliated, manifested by each passing day), which also, 'holds water' to my argument, that the offensive from the 'Pakistani' side was extremely successful. It inspires pity, that the indian armed forces, in conjunction with the Air Force could do little to stop the offensive, which mind you, illustrated/exposed their security levels, as they failed to detect the 'intrusion', by your army's own admission.

Pakistan did not "grossly miscalculate the indian response", rather india had 'grossly' underestimated the success of the 'Pakistani intrusion' and the damage caused/dealt by some negligent levels of NLI, coupled with 1000 (approx) mujahideen fighters, whom were not under the 'umbrella' of the army, nor the Air Force. The whole conflict exposed india's combat readiness, whom failed to engage with some 1000+ plus adversaries and still managed to run out of wood to bury their dead. (As saw live on the news at the time, (Pakistani and indian) thus you cannot claim otherwise).

Moreover, "ex COAS pleading to the world that the intrusion was perpetrated by Kashmiri mujahideens, which turned out to be Active Pakistani military soldiers and officers". Once again, you are exhibiting delusions of grandeur, as you cannot find a suitable counter-narrative, rather meekly, rely upon twisting the facts of history, to align with your fallacious argument, 'tone down the rhetoric', play on facts and not ignorance. Those brave souls you allude to were the NLI, that were later Inducted into the army as regulars, given their valour/success, who fought alongside the brave 1000 (approx) mujahideen's. Pakistan could not utilise it's Air Force, given that it was an informal attack and not directly from the regular army. Glad you acquiescently agree that, Pakistan successfully captured those peaks, your army of 700k backed by the Air Force could do little to nothing - by way of ousting them, you just exposed the ineptness of your own army, congratulations. The only time Pakistan's regular army had engaged their indian counterparts, was when two indian jets violated Pakistani air space and were brought down immediately, much to the despair of the indian public and IAF. Successfully repelling the desperate indian attempt.

However, it is no 'state secret' the Pakistani regularly army was poised to engage the indian's if the situation had escalated further (but given, Pakistan was in complete control, even though they were engaging a 700k army backed by the IAF, thus, did not see it fit to go 'all out', so to speak, given the mounting international pressure and duplicity of the current Prime Minister). Additionally, it's just as well for india, Nawaz Sharif had sold Pakistan out, turned out to be their 'silver lining', (an opportunity for the indian media to entertain some 'face-saving-exercises' to ease the trepidations of the indian nation and quell the embarrassment of the armed forces), much like he is today, given his india-based-assets. Hence, the military success being translated into a political defeat.

Furthermore, "All you were able to achieve brilliantly was to surprise Indian forces by occupying empty position, these were not captured by ousting Indian forces but sneeked into" wholly describes your siachen escapades. You summed it up perfectly. Pakistan embarrassed india during the entire duration of the 1999 conflict. I found it abhorrent, as did many, when the indians conveniently dished out medals to honour some of the 'dead', whom were later found to be 'alive' (your answer to negate this fact, "it was accidental, given the size of our army" ..Your own compatriots and neutral bodies will laugh at such tripe, that is your own personal view and is wholly-inconceivable). With regards to all of the above, it is therefore needless to say, the 1999 Kargil-conflict- proved to be a total failure in regards to the indian intelligence, further the failure to dislodge/oust your counterparts and stands as a testament to the indian army's embarrassment in 1999. In addition, you being favourably disposed towards india- would of course conveniently deny this. Acute-denial as it's called.

Ps. In the first war, Pakistan had successfully thwarted the indian army and conquered 1/3 of Kashmir. In 1965, Pakistan had humiliated india beyond comprehension, the much larger, more advanced indian army/air force and navy were utterly humiliated by a much smaller force- with a special mention to the Air Force domain. In utter desperation, india begged the UNSC to request pakistan to withdraw from the conquered land and India would resolve the Kashmir issue. However, as expected India did not honour it's commitment.

This all begs the question about parity. Break-free from the shackles of a pungent-bias, think logically/rationally and address the issue impartially. Ask yourself the following. What if Pakistan had parity in the naval, army and Air Force facets, respectively. What would have happened to your inept army?, have you ever asked yourself that?!, of course you haven't, as you choose to avoid the parity issue. Even after being heavily outnumbered, in every war, the endowed Pakistani military, not only managed to defeat this 'formidable adversary', but sufficiently embarrassed them in the process. You should commend your Pakistani counterparts and not ridicule their valour.

Finally. You forwarded me accounts of retired professionals, do not fail to overlook that the internet is brimming with/is inundated with a plethora of accounts from retired- indian military professionals accepting defeat, in regards to the wars (but i didn't see it fit to post them). There is a degree of subjectivity about this. Which leads me to address your service time and personal experience. Your personal view/take of what manifested, cannot be attributed to admissible evidence, as being an indian, you cannot be trusted to be impartial, therefore you will be inherently, favourably disposed towards india. What's more 'perception isn't always reality', successfully negating your "i was there and this is what i saw" claims. In any case, the grim reality remains, you lost, but given acute-denial, narcissism, comprise of your national traits, you'll conveniently lean on denial, as a 'face-saving exercise'.

India is the nation of Bollywood, drama/stories often overlap with reality in your country, as was the case of the 'terror boat' debacle. Unlike you i do not rely on fellow members/ certain attention seeking retired- military professionals that can be found across the vast realm of the internet (from both sides i.e indians ascribed Gen. Pal as an attention seeker, exactly why i didn't post the youtube link which conveyed his confession about india losing, i knew it would be passed as nonsense by you and your compatriots), in order to validate my argument. Fact remains you lost in 47, 62, 65 and in particular 99 - complemented your rich history of losing. Super power who?!

My official stance: Military success, translated into a political defeat by Nawaz Sharif. No surprises there. Pakistan may have lost Bangladesh (three-on-one situation, so you cannot take credit), you lost Pakistan, Bangladesh and a significant portion of Kashmir, in all amounting to around 1,000,000km (squared). You walked into that one Ouch!

This is all common knowledge regarding the conflict. I.e Pakistan conquered peaks (you acepted), 2 downed indian-fighter planes (you accepted) it is basic knowledge that the NLI and mujahideen featured from the 'Pakistani side' (you accepted, as you did not challenge it), india handing medals to honour some of the 'fallen soldiers' that were found to be alive (you accepted- read your post), india ordering emergency equipment from israel and South-Africa (you didn't challenge it, in other words agreed with it), india losing Pakistan, Bangladesh and a healthy chunk (around 53%) of Kashmir, all of which amounts to around 1,000,000km(squared) (source any geography book).
In sight of this what are you asking me to reference?! When you accept it's all true.

Do not, provide me with anymore youtube videos and Wikipedia as your references or accounts from previous members, respectfully leave your personal experience aside also, as 'perception isn't always reality'.

What is your counter- narrative to my entire post? (MOST of which you
accept already. Read over your own posts).

I received a ban warning for calling someone retard (ironically, the mod who issued the ban also used to call others retard lol). He should receive one too. If what you say is true, he should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Folkindia]

I sure hope so, his intent appears to be rooted in negativity and cynically took advantage of his 'analyst' position. Spews fallacious-venom against Pakistan, on PDF. Oh the irony.

Thankfully @waz @Horus @Oscar @Jungibaaz will see right through his covert trolling, which stemmed from his inability to compile a sound counter-narrative.

Then he's insulting you.



I received a ban warning for calling someone retard (ironically, the mod who issued the ban also used to call others retard lol). He should receive one too. If what you say is true, he should be dealt with accordingly.