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8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

No ones that yet :p it's just ov gave approval for 8 subs... i think i read somewhere that 2 types of subs we are getting... yeh Stealth told that 2 types of subs
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diplomat reported that Paksitan is negotiating for two kind of submarine .. one is S26 (upgraded version of S20 submarine) and one is S30 (a version of Qing class will have displacement of 3000 tons )
 
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@Zarvan ^^^^ Check this
4 subs each or 6 S26 & 2 S30

there wasn't a specific number of submarines
here is full news related to 2 types of sub

Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”
 
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Here is the Article from the Diplomat

Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs

Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.


Yesterday, the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informed the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.

Details on the type of vessels or their price tag are murky. IHS Jane’s quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”

According to IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships the Type 041 Yuan-class is,“a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessel allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons, according to public sources.

However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 Qing-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. IHS Jane’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the Financial Times that there are still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

Good thing is Article says Pakistan will Build Submarines

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

:woot::woot::victory::victory::victory:
 
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there wasn't a specific number of submarines
here is full news related to 2 types of sub

Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

This is confusing!! First line states build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons.

Then it says S-26 and S-30

S-26 is based on ?
S-30 is based on?

Qing Class 3800 tons
PN may be looking to produce Yuan Class Type-41 which has displacement 3000-3500 tons


However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 Qing-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.

Then Why

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

3000 ton displacement is Yuan Class.
 
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This is confusing!! First line states build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons.

Then it says S-26 and S-30

S-26 is based on ?
S-30 is based on?

Qing Class 3800 tons
PN may be looking to produce Yuan Class Type-41 which has displacement 3000-3500 tons




Then Why



3000 ton displacement is Yuan Class.
Maybe S30 will be a small version of Qing class with SLBM capability ....
 
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options for further 4 are the German U-214 / Type-216, Turkish T-209s, South Korean, Spanish and Japanese subs for better AIP / Sub technology left only, apart from Chinese subs.

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China & searching for Western Subs

By Usman Ansari - Defence News.com 9:09 a.m. EDT April 3, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in
service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines. Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214 or the latest Type-216, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export. However, Cloughley said there may also be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214 / Type-216.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three German Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank PakDef Forums said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214/Type-216 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles and Ballistic Missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Email: uansari@defensenews.com

PakDef Forums
 
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Actual requirement for subs are very first time fulfilled. The Past experience of such deals were a burdon for our Navy as Augosta-90B was a choice of Peoples Party govt for huge kick backs attached with them in cloudy 90's. Navy has now decided for its own choice. The immediate requirement is for 6 of same class as many time i have read in forums and news etc. The 7th and 8th are a bit mystery now , as they might be nuclear one's. Its power plant has to be build or selected or may be designed on some chinese design
 
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Further to what you said.

If Pakistan does have technology to build Augusta 90B, then why cant it build more and buy the AIP system off the shelf from France? Or just get Chinese AIP tech instead of whole submarine. Just wondering.
The AIP from France can be refused or sanctioned, that is the first negative outlook . Pakistan when building its own _better than Agosta 90B_ submarines will have the opportunity to sell them too or go into JVs which is much better than depending on permissions and being subjected to refusal denial or sanctions. Think the case of the JF-17 applied to submarines and Naval warships.
 
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The AIP from France can be refused or sanctioned, that is the first negative outlook . Pakistan when building its own _better than Agosta 90B_ submarines will have the opportunity to sell them too or go into JVs which is much better than depending on permissions and being subjected to refusal denial or sanctions. Think the case of the JF-17 applied to submarines and Naval warships.

There is also an other out look to what you are saying. Chinese Subs are for domestic and export for Latin America and Africa where as the Western are for the ARAB States.

Considering the Arab Defance Force then U-209 / U-214 is a better and logical choice. Along with the French ones but if France sites TOT issues in regards to Pakistan is all because of it requires more money which can be arraigned however France can not immediately provide these. The U-209 and U214 can be made available immediately new as well as old.
 
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Here is the Article from the Diplomat

Confirmed: Pakistan Will Buy Eight Chinese Subs

Details on the type of vessel as well as the new fleet’s price tag remain unknown.




Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

:woot::woot::victory::victory::victory:

There is an " also " guys...
 
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