2*MIG 35 >> RAFALE/EFT

[rockstarIN]

I'm not worried about the outcome of an MKI vs EFT show down. The Irbis-E has a claimed detection range of 90kms for .01 m^2 target (debatable). That should mean that the AESA variant Zhuk-ASE should be capable of similar detection performance, meaning it would detect a clean EFT at 180kms. EFT will not be getting the first shot off as both would detect each other at similar ranges. The rest is upto missiles and countermeasures. Currently EFT has upper hand in the missiles department but the MKI should be having better countermeasures because it uses Israeli systems?

It is very debatable, so far air dominance fighter is good against MRCA in the real war scenerios. Also heavy fighter means more fuel, weapons, missiles etc. More durable in air provided there will be alot of fire and run tactics in BVR..

 

[jagjitnatt]

^^Do you really think IsAF shared that much secretive data with Indians? as their Sufa is running on APG series and Americans didn't allow them to change it to ELTA/2032.

Anyway, informative data from you..

Thx

Yes, they have. The EL/L-8222 EW pod that we use on our aircraft is perfectly capable of jamming most of APG series of radars. Since the Israeli F-16s use APG radars, the Israelis have been able to study the radar, and find the best jamming techniques for it.

 

[tvsram1992]

MKi can be detected at long distances. Yes.

But how will Zhuk-AE detect Rafale at longer distance???



3d TVC doesn't mean it has to be more maneuverable than 2d TVC, the airframe plays a very important role here. The Su 30 airframe is a lot better than the Mig airframe, and it makes it more maneuverable than the Mig-35.

Also 3D TVC isn't a radical improvement over 2D TVC. Here's why:

The aircraft is highly maneuverable in its pitch axis due to the huge control surfaces on its wings, and the lift generated by the fuselage. The TVC system acts as another control element. In the aircraft the yaw control surfaces are very small and ineffective. The only yaw control surface are the vertical stabilizers. The addition of TVC doesn't make a huge difference to the maneuverability in yaw axis.

but i heard that mig 35 can just stay in mid air like harriers do at low altitudes and can hover . Why cant yaw be made by using tvc. If the tvc nozzles moves in right or left direction, they can prove more useful than rudders. Rudders help only at high speeds due more pressure developed a side than other side, planes moves right or left.
During dogfight , yaw can be made at low speeds also due to 3d tvc.

To turn left or right, TVC or vertical stabilizers are not used, rather the aircraft is rolled in left or right direction and then its pitch control surfaces are used to direct it in the direction in which the pilot intends to go. So the advantage of 3D TVC is minimal when compared to 2D TVC.

yes to turn left or right flaps on wings are used. As you said, pitch is made so as to attain a turn after rolling towards any side. Tvc in downward and upward direction can influence pitch hugely. So this tvc can be useful in pitching. It can also make aircraft roll when (generally 2 engines are used for tvc)one tvc points up and other down. Similar to that of flaps. So 3d tvc can be used to make movements in all axis.So it can make turn rate more faster as it effects pitch and roll.

Ill give you a example where tvc seems to be upper hand.
Suppose elevators are upwards, the aircraft gains altitude ie pitches upwards. If the same is done in case of 3d tvc aircraft with tvc nozzles downwards the aircraft losses altitude , it will be similar to first half of the cobra maneuver but instead of nose pitching up,moves down. Generally power of tvc is 6-10 times greater than the pressure created by rudders,elevators and flaps.

 

[jagjitnatt]

but i heard that mig 35 can just stay in mid air like harriers do at low altitudes and can hover . Why cant yaw be made by using tvc. If the tvc nozzles moves in right or left direction, they can prove more useful than rudders. Rudders help only at high speeds due more pressure developed a side than other side, planes moves right or left.
During dogfight , yaw can be made at low speeds also due to 3d tvc.

It can not stay in mid air like Harriers. What Mig-35 does is a stall maneuver, which means it stays in the air for a second and then stalls.

yes to turn left or right flaps on wings are used. As you said, pitch is made so as to attain a turn after rolling towards any side. Tvc in downward and upward direction can influence pitch hugely. So this tvc can be useful in pitching. It can also make aircraft roll when (generally 2 engines are used for tvc)one tvc points up and other down. Similar to that of flaps. So 3d tvc can be used to make movements in all axis.So it can make turn rate more faster as it effects pitch and roll.

I think you are getting it wrong. 2D TVC means the nozzles can point up and down both. In 2D TVC, one nozzle can be pointing down, and the other pointing up. In 3d TVC, the nozzles can point in all 360 degrees.
But as I have explained that TVC is only effective when there is a control surface to guide the turn. For turning left and right, nozzles are not pointed left or right, because nozzles alone can not turn the aircraft, there needs to be a control surface too, for eg vertical stabilizers.

There is very little that 3D TVC adds to the 2D TVC.

 

[luckyyy]

Every radar works at a pre determined frequency, except for AESA radars, which keep shifting their frequencies. If we know what frequency a radar works at, we can flood that frequency range, which confuses the enemy aircraft radar.

The frequencies of the radar can not be changed. Only the AESA frequencies can be changed. An AESA actually keeps shifting frequencies every moment, which makes it almost impossible to jam a radar. The only way to jam an AESA is to flood the whole range of frequencies, which is a very tough thing to do, requires a lot of power.

even PESA radar keep shifting frequency ..

the difference b/w a PESA and a AESA is that a AESA has many T/R modules so that it can shift the T/R to avoild any over heating ..

 

[jagjitnatt]

even PESA radar keep shifting frequency ..

the difference b/w a PESA and a AESA is that a AESA has many T/R modules so that it can shift the T/R to avoild any over heating ..

PESA can shift frequencies, but when it does, all the T/R modules shift their frequency. They can not be controlled independently. An AESA on the other hand can have different frequency for every T/R module.

So a PESA usually sticks to a set of frequencies whereas the AESA keeps shifting frequencies all the time, and jamming a frequency range will only disable some of the T/R elements, not all.

The overheating issue isn't handled by switching off the elements, rather liquid cooling methods are used, or duty cycle is reduced. Switching off modules will reduce the radar range dramatically.

 

[tvsram1992]

It can not stay in mid air like Harriers. What Mig-35 does is a stall maneuver, which means it stays in the air for a second and then stalls.



I think you are getting it wrong. 2D TVC means the nozzles can point up and down both. In 2D TVC, one nozzle can be pointing down, and the other pointing up. In 3d TVC, the nozzles can point in all 360 degrees.
But as I have explained that TVC is only effective when there is a control surface to guide the turn. For turning left and right, nozzles are not pointed left or right, because nozzles alone can not turn the aircraft, there needs to be a control surface too, for eg vertical stabilizers.

There is very little that 3D TVC adds to the 2D TVC.

Yes i know that in 2d tvc one can get up and other can get down, but it is limited to 90 degree. The nozzle is free to move only in the range of 180 degree at back part of the aircraft. Remember except mig35 no other aircraft has either 2d/2d tvc so its better just we call it 3d tvc the world's most advanced tvc which makes mig35 more more maneuverable.

if at all air crafts pitch can be controlled by tvc , then turn can also be controlled as turn is achieved by roll and then pitch.

what u say about this, i would like to know the fact.

Magic of MIG-35 Fighter

"A helicopter can stay still mid-air. But a fighter plane? No way. The laws of physics and jet propulsion don?t allow that.

Russian engineers have achieved just that. They are offering the plane to India, which is looking for 126 multi-role fighters like the US F-16 and F-18, the French Mirage-2000-V and Swedish Gripen.
]

I had a doubt. B2 spirit bomber has no stabilizers how can its motion be controlled. I know it has advanced avionics. I would like to know what is that advanced avionics and how can b2 motion be controlled.

 

[tvsram1992]

Happy republic day to all indians.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Yes i know that in 2d tvc one can get up and other can get down, but it is limited to 90 degree. The nozzle is free to move only in the range of 180 degree at back part of the aircraft. Remember except mig35 no other aircraft has either 2d/2d tvc so its better just we call it 3d tvc the world's most advanced tvc which makes mig35 more more maneuverable.

if at all air crafts pitch can be controlled by tvc , then turn can also be controlled as turn is achieved by roll and then pitch.

I can't quite understand what you're trying to say. All aircraft first roll and then pitch up to change direction, and 2D TVC does this just as good as the 3D TVC. So I don't see any major advantage in 3D TVC.

what u say about this, i would like to know the fact.

I had a doubt. B2 spirit bomber has no stabilizers how can its motion be controlled. I know it has advanced avionics. I would like to know what is that advanced avionics and how can b2 motion be controlled.

The paragraph you quoted is not correct. It just means that Mig-35 is very maneuverable. It can not however hover in air like Harriers.

B2 doesn't have vertical stabilizers. That is my whole point. We don't need control elements to yaw left or right. We just need horizontal stabilizers to turn. The same happens with 2D TVC. There is no yaw dimension involved, only pitch and roll.

B2's motion is controlled by the wings, at the end of which are flaps, which help the aircraft roll, and then the same flaps are used to pitch up or down.

The vertical stabilizers in traditional aircraft are used to resist any unwanted roll in the aircraft, not to turn the aircraft. Only heavy/slow aircraft use rudders to turn.

 

[luckyyy]

Mig-35 has lots of positives with them , like ,lowest cost , they can offer the maximum TOT , maximum offset ,if it's fills the IAF requirements , which i think it would.............

 

[tvsram1992]

I heard that indian strategic forces command had a requirement of 40+ multirole combat aircraft. In that case low cost aircrafts like migs wont work as number is limited to 40. If u think there is delay in mig35 buy 40 rafales/eft which are known for their multi role capabilities and attacking with heavy payloads and reduced rcs nature . Here though 2 mig's can overcome this the number is important(should be limited) in case of sfc and navy.
So what if we do like this
Buy 40 rafales for IAF temporarily(they are best suitable for nuclear delivery)
and till the time we get mig35 as fully developed version with aesa and other .....or mki version.. After we get 40 mig35's for IAF send rafales for upgrades like full nuclear role capacity (remember it is the highest payload carrying capability aircraft in MMRCA )by any country like french/israel/russia/ america(can be possible as j20 can be fully developed at that time) with aesa and other stuff and induct in SFC which can work there till 2050 without major upgrades. Later buy 5++ gen aircraft for SFC. and IAF will keep on inducting mig35 aircraft.
Buy 40 f35's for navy.(not mandatory)
Result : Good relations with french/europe/USA contd....
Relation with Russia became as strong as Diamond .
Mig 1.44 project opened again for 6th gen aircraft joint venture of russia and india like brahmos , pak fa..............

 

[dawny]

I don't think mig 1.44 JV with Russia ever fructify,,bcoz J-20 is based on inputs from Russians on cancelled mig 1.44..

 

[tvsram1992]

I don't think mig 1.44 JV with Russia ever fructify,,bcoz J-20 is based on inputs from Russians on cancelled mig 1.44..

U mean russia blinding its own eyes???

 

[tvsram1992]

I don't think mig 1.44 JV with Russia ever fructify,,bcoz J-20 is based on inputs from Russians on cancelled mig 1.44..

Then cant india get that tech for amca?

 

[tvsram1992]

India should impose a condition such that a company which sells aircraft to india should not not maintain its relations with bordering countries of india.
like if we go for rafale dassualt should stop helping pakistan
i we buy sukhois sukhoi corp shouldnt sell give technology to china, same with migs also.
Other companies of the country can proceed its relations with our bordering countries.