15 Years in the Afghan Crucible : NYT

[A-Team]

Sober assessment discussing some of the challenges mostly regional but also opportunities.
One thing is for sure that Afghanistan is going to make to the finish line whether those in the region want or not. The only mature thing to for them is to understand that Afghan instability will directly affect them but a thriving Afghanistan will have an immensely positive implications for the region.

_______________________

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/opinion/sunday/15-years-in-the-afghan-crucible.html?_r=0

Over time I began to notice a new generation of trained professionals working in government offices: Young men with degrees in charge of district offices, teenage women teaching classes to the younger students, female graduates working in private universities, and officials in the ministries and embassies returning from abroad with master’s degrees and doctorates.

Despite many complaints about the dysfunctional government, there is still hope that President Ashraf Ghani has the ideas to lift the economy.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@A-Team To be honest I am reconsidering my thoughts on Afghanistan. The truth is you are a rarity. Most Afghans either call us "Indian" or Punjabi lovers. Your friend @Kandahi is typical. I am not going to be make any apologies for the fact that we have many ethnic groups in Pakistan. They are all differant, some more, some less than others. Without telling you the district my family hail from, I can tell you we have at least three ethnic groups more or less in equal portions. The district is fracture zone between K-PK, Punjab and nearby Kashmir.

Now I am not going belittle or make dirty the other ethnic groups in our district. We have lived for generations in neighbouring villages. I have lived in Europe all my life and understand that man must move above parochial ethnic, tribal affiliations or we will have non ending war and conflict like we have had for centuries.

However many of your countrymen who themselves are riven along tribal, ethnic and religious chasms have the temerity to come and disrespect Pakistan under the narrative that Afghanistan is generic and Pakistan is false or artificial. That is monumental rubbish. I intend to open a thread in Afghan section to address this issue. Lets get this clear. Afghanistan, Pakistan and India are artificial. Three of them are products of European powers.

I give you one example. We get Afghans questioning about the Durand Line and claiming it was imposed. First if it was imposed why did you not take issue with the British before 1947? Was that because they were strong and if you questioned them they had habit of invading Kabul regularly? As soon as the British leave in 1947 and we have Durand being questioned.

However leaving the Durand alone. What is the Afghan border on the north like. You know the Amu Darya line? That border was also imposed by Russia/Britain. The Afghan Boundary Commision was headed by Russian and British officials who drew the line without any Afghan input. Have a look at the British officer - below. No it is not Durand but his name is General P. Lumsden and he was instrumental in drawing the line on Afghanistan's northern flank. We might as well call it the Lumsden Line.

General Sir Peter Stark Lumsden > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lumsden

The interesting fact is "Lumdsen Line" resulted in huge tract of area under Afghan nominal jurisdiction being grabbed by Russians - Panjdeh ring a bell? This huge tract of land is still in hands of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. When was the last time I heard any Afghan complain or threaten Turkmens or Uzbek governments for dissolving the "Lumsden Line" and reclaiming the lost Afghan land? I can't quite understand this on the part of Afghans? Why only Durand? What about Pandjdeh? And you will know Pakistan for all it's problems is far, far stronger than Turkmen and Uzbeks combined yet your countrymen stay ignorant about the north but b*tch and moan about the south - the Durand. There is deeply disturbing inequality about this.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident
Link > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Boundary_Commission

Now moving on to the other issue. Afghans rake up the ethnic fissures inside Pakistan - which exist. They make Pashtuns feel guilty for being in a federation with Punjabi and other groups. Asides from the fact that any attempt to try to draw a line between the two would lead to massive bloodshed - my district is example of that. This however is like a kettle calling the pot black.

If all of Afghanistan was generic Afghan (Pashtuns) then fine there might be some water in that argument. However Afghanistan is far from being Pashtun country. If Punjabi's are distant from Pashtuns will someone explain to me how a Hazara Mongol is closer to me? Because he certainly is not. He belongs to Mongolian race, a Shia and speaks Persian and I am supposed to ignore that? It is heights of duplicity for Afghans to peddle this ethnic argument.

The day Afghans shed all non Pashtun people than yes a movement in Pakistan would get wind behind it to unite with our Pashtun brothers across the border and Durand is dismantled. You might know if Afghanistan is prepared to dismantle the "Lumsden Line" and give the areas with Turkmen, Uzbeks, Tajiks to their respective countries including giving the Mongols in central Afghanistan their "Hazaraistan". Until then we are going to have wait.

Finally Afghanistan needs Pakistan far more than Pakistan needs Afghanistan. India, you can mollycoddle those wannabe's all you like but the real big boys in this region are going to be Chinese. For christ sakes they are the next hyperpower. Their economy is already as large as USA. In short in this trans Af-Pak region the only real enlarging shadow you will see is China. And you know the Chinese for strategic reasons are in with Pakistan.

I think Afghan's need to take this reality in. USA is not going to be there forever. Pakistan/China will. India, unless you build highways over the Pakistani airspace will remain a distant country. Chah Bahar or no Chah Bahar.

Ps. Ideally if there was cordial relation between Af-Pak I would prefer there be a open border like UK and Ireland had. Free movement of people and open trade but that is only possible if the issues are resolved begining with all the angst and Durand Line.

And I tried to tag @Kandahari but there is no response?

 

[A-Team]

@A-Team To be honest I am reconsidering my thoughts on Afghanistan. The truth is you are a rarity. Most Afghans either call us "Indian" or Punjabi lovers. Your friend @Kandahi is typical. I am not going to be make any apologies for the fact that we have many ethnic groups in Pakistan. They are all differant, some more, some less than others. Without telling you the district my family hail from, I can tell you we have at least three ethnic groups more or less in equal portions. The district is fracture zone between K-PK, Punjab and nearby Kashmir.

Now I am not going belittle or make dirty the other ethnic groups in our district. We have lived for generations in neighbouring villages. I have lived in Europe all my life and understand that man must move above parochial ethnic, tribal affiliations or we will have non ending war and conflict like we have had for centuries.

However many of your countrymen who themselves are riven along tribal, ethnic and religious chasms have the temerity to come and disrespect Pakistan under the narrative that Afghanistan is generic and Pakistan is false or artificial. That is monumental rubbish. I inend to open a thread in Afghan section to address this issue. Lets get this clear. Afghanistan, Pakistan and India are artificial. Three of them are products of European powers.

I give you one example. We get Afghans questioning about the Durand Line and claiming it was imposed. First if it was imposed why did you not take issue with the British before 1947? Was that because they were strong and if you questioned them they had habit of invading Kabul regularly? As soon as the British leave 19487 and we have Duran being questioned.

However leaviong the Durand alone. What is the Afghan border on the north like. You know the Amu Darya line? That border was also imposed by Russia/Britain. The Afghan Boundary Commision was headed by Russian and British official who drew the line without any Afghan input. Have a look at the this British officer. No it is not Durand but his name is General P. Lumsden and he was instrumental in drawing the line on Afghanistan's northern flanl. We might as well call it the Lumsden Line.

General Sir Peter Stark Lumsden > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lumsden

The interesting fact is "Lumdsen Line" resulted in huge tract of area under Afghan nominal jurisdiction being grabbed by Russians - Panjdeh ring a bell? This huge tract of land is still in hands of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. When was the last time I heard any Afghan complain or threaten Turkmens or Uzbek governments for dissolving the "Lumsden Line" and reclaming the lost Afghan land? I can't understand this quite on the part of Afghans? Why only Durands? And you will now Pakistan for all it's problems is far, far stronger than Turkmen and Uzbeks combined yet your countrymen stay ignorant about the north but b*tch and moan about the south - the Durand. There is deeply disturbing inequality about this.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident
Link > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Boundary_Commission

Now moving on to the issue the other issue. Afghans rake up the ethnic fissures inside Pakistan - which exist. They make Pashtuns feel guilty for being in a federsation with Punjabi and other groups. Asides from the fact that any attempt to try to draw a line between the two would lead to massive bloodshed - my district is example of that there is the issue that this is like a kettle calling the pot black.

If all of Afghanistan was generic Afghan (Pashtuns) then fine there might be some water in that argument. However Afghanistan is far from being Pashtun country. If Punjabi's are distant from Pashtuns will someone explain to me how a Hazara Mongol is closer to me? Because he certainly is not. He belongs to Mongolian race, a Shia and speaks Persian and i am supposed to ignore that? It is heights of duplicity for Afghans to peddle this ethnic argument.

The day Afghans shed all non Pashtun people than yes a movement in Pakistan would get wind behind it to unite with our Pashtun brothers across the border and Durand is dismantled. As you know is Afghanistan prepared to dismantle the "Lumsden Line" and give the areas with Turkmen, Uzbeks, Tajiks to their respective countries including giving the Mongols in central Afghanistan their "Hazaraistan" we are going to have wait.

Finally Afghanistan needs Pakistan far more than Pakistan needs Afghanistan. India, you can mollycoddle those wannabe's all you like but the real big boys in this region are going to be Chinese. For christ sakes they are the next hyperpower. Their economy is already as large as USA. In short in this trans Af-Pak region the only real enlarhing shadow you will see is China. And you know the Chinese for strategic reasons are in with Pakistan.

I think Afghan's need to take this reality in. USA is not going to be there forever. Pakistan/China will. India, unless you build highways over the Pakistani airspace will remain a distant country. Chah Bahar or no Chah Bahar.

And I tried to tag @Kandahari but there is no response?

I think it's in the interests of Afghanistan is for Afghans to concentrate on bettering the Afghanistan that we have right now, instead of living in a history gone by, it is imperative that we get our act together and turn this country from a war stricken into one where it competes not only with the region but beyond.
I think this is a position that any sensible Afghan would agree to, Pakistani Pashtuns have assimilated pretty well in the Pakistani state and why would they want to join Afghanistan its current situation, can't blame them.

All of us must make difficult choices to move beyond the current setup in our region, Pakistan and India have to make similar choices with regards their issues. For too long this part of the world has been a laugh stock.

I can tell you this though, Ashraf Ghani is a visionary, he believes turning this part of the world into one where we will thrive, where borders would mean nothing if we have full mesh connectivity of commerce and people. I just hope that sensible folks in the Pakistani side would help in achieving stability in Afghanistan by assisting Ashraf Ghani.

Internal discourse for Afghans.: Those calling others names, be it Punjabi, or whatever should look inwards for once and see what they have done with their own country ? Punjabis and Indians have turned their countries into nuclear powers and the mighty Afghans have cannibalized their own country.

Being honest with oneself is imperative if we are develop Afghanistan in any meaningful way, bravado and milking the glory of past wont do us any good

/Peace

 

[Indus Pakistan]

, Pakistani Pashtuns have assimilated pretty well in the Pakistani state and why would they want to join Afghanistan its current situation, can't blame them.

Do you think we would have liked to see K-Pk go through what happened post 1979 Soviet invasion? That Soviets landed in Kabul in 1979 was entirely external to Pakistan. I don't think Moscow was dictated to by Islamabad. You know what pecdeded it. You know the decade of war the succeeded it. One could argue that post 1994 Pakistan might have had some leverage but what happened from 1979 to 1994 is entirely at Kabul's account. K-Pk could do better but is is damned sight better in everything then Afghanistan. That is the bottom line at end of the day.

And I reiterate again if we are going to have ethnic nationalism determined by single ethnic groups then Afghanistan needs to clear out it's non ethnic Afghans - Mongol Hazara, Turkmen, Uzbek, Aimak, Tajiks and then we can talk of creating a pure Afghan state containig all the Pashtuns who are presently dispersed everywhere. Until them no more of this dangerous divisive rubbish.

I just hope that sensible folks in the Pakistani side would help in achieving stability in Afghanistan by assisting Ashraf Ghani.

To be honest lot of this will fall on the Chinese. They really are very secular, business minded. I think they will push this region slowly into order as they certainly do not want Islamists. They want to trade. That is what CPEC is all about. I think as they invest more they will start demanding more to make sure their interests (trade) is taken into account.

 

[pakistani342]

Sober assessment discussing some of the challenges mostly regional but also opportunities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/opinion/sunday/15-years-in-the-afghan-crucible.html?_r=0

You beat me to this, every Afghan buff should read this, a few points and excerpts.

1. This is an op-ed -- it does not have to adhere to the same journalistic standards as a standard article
2. Her previous article which bashed Pakistan was printed by NYT under the magazine section and not the standard paper (as many people highlighted)
2. The article is written by Carlotta Gal -- in her book she says -- she's not trying to be fair: she feels it is necessary to amplify the Afghan cause. Now if you read the article further, even through her rose colored glasses she says:

KABUL, Afghanistan — There is an end-of-an-era feel here these days. Military helicopters rattle overhead, ferrying American and Afghan officials by air rather than risk cars bombs in the streets. The concrete barriers, guarding against suicide attacks, have grown taller and stronger around every embassy and government building, and whole streets are blocked off from the public.

...

Afghan forces have been bearing the brunt, suffering unsustainable casualties. Communities talk of hundreds of coffins returning from the front line. Civilians have suffered no less — thousands of families have been displaced anew by fighting, and aid workers warn that their access is deteriorating. Business executives have been leaving, selling off their property, and whole families have swelled the refugee columns heading to Europe.

...

Over the years, Afghanistan has received one of the highest amounts of foreign assistance per capita, on a par with the West Bank and Gaza and Liberia. The United States alone has spent close to $500 billion on its Afghanistan mission since 2002, most of it on military operations but roughly a fifth — $113 billion — on reconstruction, according to the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction.

>>> @A-Team Afghans really cannot take any credit -- $113 was spent on a country of 30,000,000 -- this is more than the inflation adjusted amount that was spent on the post war construction of Germany -- the 80 TV channels and the think tanks where Borhan Osman write or where Morad Moradian sit Hekmat Karzai used to sit are funded courtesy the American Taxpayer like me -- imagine what would have happened if we'd offered the same money to Pakistan ???

Yet it remains one of the poorest countries in the world — more than 10 million people live below the poverty line, and three-quarters of the population is illiterate, according to the World Bank.

>>> There you go even Carlotta Gall cannot escape this fact

And the Pakistani military is ever more brazen in its support for the insurgents, even flying in retired military officers to train the Taliban by chartered helicopter — one crash-landed in a Taliban-controlled area of eastern Afghanistan in August bearing six retired military personnel and a Russian pilot.

>>> This is what you're up against -- and NOTE a Russian pilot -- Do you think the Pakistani Army need a Russian pilot??? There is a reason the Russian was there ...

In America and Europe, I detect general weariness with the Afghanistan campaign. I often hear people describe it as the “Afghan disaster.” Certainly there have been many blunders: the corruption, the poor leadership and the unremitting casualties. But I would never term it a disaster.

>>> Even through rose colored glasses -- this is how Afghanistan is seen inside the beltway in DC

Half of Kabul was in ruins and uninhabited. I used to ride horses in western Kabul because it was mostly deserted and we could canter through broken compounds and ruined gardens. Now the whole area is rebuilt and thick with people. The campus of the American University of Afghanistan stands across from a new Parliament building (built by India) and across the street from the renovated Kabul museum and government compounds. Much of the public building has been done with American money.

>>> If Afghans wish to keep their current path of antagonizing Pakistan -- this is where you might again be in 10-20 years -- choose very carefully -- what are you fighting for?
Afghanistan once had only two provincial universities, and now it has more than 30, offering graduate courses for the first time. Scores of private schools and universities are filling the thirst for education. “The young people have found their voice and are speaking out like never before,” says Nancy Dupree, a former American diplomat who founded the Afghan Center at Kabul University, which holds a vast digital archive of research material.

...

Most Afghans say they will need American support in defense and diplomacy to counter the continuing threat of terrorism and to protect them from predatory neighbors beyond the 2017 deadline that President Obama has made for the drawdown. There is a real danger the Afghan Army could collapse next year if the fighting and casualties remain as intense, and so a continued United States military commitment will remain essential.

>>> There you have it -- the Afghan Army could collapse -- the GHQ boys have done it more than once before.

 

[Khan_21]

You beat me to this, every Afghan buff should read this, a few points and excerpts.

1. This is an op-ed -- it does not have to adhere to the same journalistic standards as a standard article
2. Her previous article which bashed Pakistan was printed by NYT under the magazine section and not the standard paper (as many people highlighted)
2. The article is written by Carlotta Gal -- in her book she says -- she's not trying to be fair: she feels it is necessary to amplify the Afghan cause. Now if you read the article further, even through her rose colored glasses she says:

KABUL, Afghanistan — There is an end-of-an-era feel here these days. Military helicopters rattle overhead, ferrying American and Afghan officials by air rather than risk cars bombs in the streets. The concrete barriers, guarding against suicide attacks, have grown taller and stronger around every embassy and government building, and whole streets are blocked off from the public.

...

Afghan forces have been bearing the brunt, suffering unsustainable casualties. Communities talk of hundreds of coffins returning from the front line. Civilians have suffered no less — thousands of families have been displaced anew by fighting, and aid workers warn that their access is deteriorating. Business executives have been leaving, selling off their property, and whole families have swelled the refugee columns heading to Europe.

...

Over the years, Afghanistan has received one of the highest amounts of foreign assistance per capita, on a par with the West Bank and Gaza and Liberia. The United States alone has spent close to $500 billion on its Afghanistan mission since 2002, most of it on military operations but roughly a fifth — $113 billion — on reconstruction, according to the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction.

>>> @A-Team Afghans really cannot take any credit -- $113 was spent on a country of 30,000,000 -- this is more than the inflation adjusted amount that was spent on the post war construction of Germany -- the 80 TV channels and the think tanks where Borhan Osman write or where Morad Moradian sit Hekmat Karzai used to sit are funded courtesy the American Taxpayer like me -- imagine what would have happened if we'd offered the same money to Pakistan ???

Yet it remains one of the poorest countries in the world — more than 10 million people live below the poverty line, and three-quarters of the population is illiterate, according to the World Bank.

>>> There you go even Carlotta Gall cannot escape this fact

And the Pakistani military is ever more brazen in its support for the insurgents, even flying in retired military officers to train the Taliban by chartered helicopter — one crash-landed in a Taliban-controlled area of eastern Afghanistan in August bearing six retired military personnel and a Russian pilot.

>>> This is what you're up against -- and NOTE a Russian pilot -- Do you think the Pakistani Army need a Russian pilot??? There is a reason the Russian was there ...

In America and Europe, I detect general weariness with the Afghanistan campaign. I often hear people describe it as the “Afghan disaster.” Certainly there have been many blunders: the corruption, the poor leadership and the unremitting casualties. But I would never term it a disaster.

>>> Even through rose colored glasses -- this is how Afghanistan is seen inside the beltway in DC

Half of Kabul was in ruins and uninhabited. I used to ride horses in western Kabul because it was mostly deserted and we could canter through broken compounds and ruined gardens. Now the whole area is rebuilt and thick with people. The campus of the American University of Afghanistan stands across from a new Parliament building (built by India) and across the street from the renovated Kabul museum and government compounds. Much of the public building has been done with American money.

>>> If Afghans wish to keep their current path of antagonizing Pakistan -- this is where you might again be in 10-20 years -- choose very carefully -- what are you fighting for?
Afghanistan once had only two provincial universities, and now it has more than 30, offering graduate courses for the first time. Scores of private schools and universities are filling the thirst for education. “The young people have found their voice and are speaking out like never before,” says Nancy Dupree, a former American diplomat who founded the Afghan Center at Kabul University, which holds a vast digital archive of research material.

...

Most Afghans say they will need American support in defense and diplomacy to counter the continuing threat of terrorism and to protect them from predatory neighbors beyond the 2017 deadline that President Obama has made for the drawdown. There is a real danger the Afghan Army could collapse next year if the fighting and casualties remain as intense, and so a continued United States military commitment will remain essential.

>>> There you have it -- the Afghan Army could collapse -- the GHQ boys have done it more than once before.

This region has been developing very fast with a very unstable Afghanistan for 40 years . @A-Team likes to imagine that The region wont develop if Afghanistan remains this way .

I have been saying this for a while now . Afghanistan needs to sort out its internal mess before talking of regional cooperation or regional connectivity . I mean its the 2nd most corrupt country in the world? Why would anyone invest here knowing that the leaders and warlords are the most corrupt people on earth ? $ 100 billion invested in Afghanistan and it still looks like it's stuck in the 80's . The ANA is in a big mess , Economy is shrinking , there are security problems , poverty is increasing , mentality of the people is not compatible to 21st century (this is the biggest factor) . I mean women still get gawked at when they drive in kabul (which is a rarity) , any female without a burqa is harassed and frowned upon, so the society as a whole is not in cahoots with 21st century . They need to sort out alot of the current mess before they are ready for the world .

India is growing at 7 % , Pakistan's Stock exchange is currently the best performing in Asia . The region is doing pretty well apart from Afghanistan because well they don't want to get their house in order .

OK get this out of the $ 17 billion afghan economy half of it is from drugs . I mean who's responsible for this ? Pakistan? Their warlords sell districts for money. Again is Pakistan responsible for this ? They have eaten up the $ 100 billion american money and not used it on their people , Again should Pakistan be blamed for this ? . you cannot blame GHQ or ISI making that place unstable as when they were stable pre - 79 they created all sorts of problems for us . So it's no wonder Pakistan is does not trust a stable Afghanistan . Yesterday I saw a few Afghan talk shows on how to ratchet up Pakhtoonistan issue . I mean they wont stop their Historic obsession with Pashtoon lands in Pakistan in their current miserable condition how do you expect Pakistan to let them get stable and start trouble for them again ?

The only Problem that needs to be sorted out is Pak - india problems . IDK why Afghanistan is hell bent on being the third wheel here .

 

[Shapur]

This region has been developing very fast with a very unstable Afghanistan for 40 years . @A-Team likes to imagine that The region wont develop if Afghanistan remains this way .

I have been saying this for a while now . Afghanistan needs to sort out its internal mess before talking of regional cooperation or regional connectivity . I mean its the 2nd most corrupt country in the world? Why would anyone invest here knowing that the leaders and warlords are the most corrupt people on earth ? $ 100 billion invested in Afghanistan and it still looks like it's stuck in the 80's . The ANA is in a big mess , Economy is shrinking , there are security problems , poverty is increasing , mentality of the people is not compatible to 21st century (this is the biggest factor) . I mean women still get gawked at when they drive in kabul (which is a rarity) , any female without a burqa is harassed and frowned upon, so the society as a whole is not in cahoots with 21st century . They need to sort out alot of the current mess before they are ready for the world .

India is growing at 7 % , Pakistan's Stock exchange is currently the best performing in Asia . The region is doing pretty well apart from Afghanistan because well they don't want to get their house in order .

OK get this out of the $ 17 billion afghan economy half of it is from drugs . I mean who's responsible for this ? Pakistan? Their warlords sell districts for money. Again is Pakistan responsible for this ? They have eaten up the $ 100 billion american money and not used it on their people , Again should Pakistan be blamed for this ? . you cannot blame GHQ or ISI making that place unstable as when they were stable pre - 79 they created all sorts of problems for us . So it's no wonder Pakistan is does not trust a stable Afghanistan . Yesterday I saw a few Afghan talk shows on how to ratchet up Pakhtoonistan issue . I mean they wont stop their Historic obsession with Pashtoon lands in Pakistan in their current miserable condition how do you expect Pakistan to let them get stable and start trouble for them again ?

The only Problem that needs to be sorted out is Pak - india problems . IDK why Afghanistan is hell bent on being the third wheel here .

Don't believe that $100 billion figure. That is the official figure, I read in New York Times that according to Ashraf Ghani only 12% is used properly, the rest is stolen by corrupt Afghan officials and also their American and western counter parts who split the money among themselves. I feel sorry for the American tax payers who are being fed lies by the military industrial complex.

 

[Khan_21]

Don't believe that $100 billion figure. That is the official figure, I read in New York Times that according to Ashraf Ghani only 12% is used properly, the rest is stolen by corrupt Afghan officials and also their American and western counter parts who split the money among themselves. I feel sorry for the American tax payers who are being fed lies by the military industrial complex.

Thats what am talking about. Afghan officials have looted that money . How are projects and regional connectivity initiatives going to get complete when afghan officials loot money like this?

 

[Shapur]

Thats what am talking about. Afghan officials have looted that money . How are projects and regional connectivity initiatives going to get complete when afghan officials loot money like this?

Well, corrupation is a big problem and Ashraf Ghani faces an uphill battle to curb corruption. In my opinion, Ashraf Ghani himself is not corrupt. He has given up given dual nationality, he was already a multi millionaire before returning to Afghanistan so he doesn't need money. The real problem is that there is no much trust and unity amongst all the factions to work together. I think US/NATO leaving and a peace deal with Taliban will make it easier to implement a system where there is less corruption. I dont know if and when that will happen but without it, things will be very tough.

 

[DSM0305]

Thats what am talking about. Afghan officials have looted that money . How are projects and regional connectivity initiatives going to get complete when afghan officials loot money like this?

The money weren't the responsibility of the Afghan government. They were handled by Americans. The Americans gave it to a second party, the second party gave it to third ets. and before they reach the actual destination, they were all looted. Karzai even complained about that. He said that the money should be handed to the local community so they could handle it probably for the initial purpose.

@Kaptaan
make a topic/thread regarding that and I discuss that issue with you

 

[pakistani342]

Well, corrupation is a big problem and Ashraf Ghani faces an uphill battle to curb corruption. In my opinion, Ashraf Ghani himself is not corrupt. He has given up given dual nationality, he was already a multi millionaire before returning to Afghanistan so he doesn't need money. The real problem is that there is no much trust and unity amongst all the factions to work together. I think US/NATO leaving and a peace deal with Taliban will make it easier to implement a system where there is less corruption. I dont know if and when that will happen but without it, things will be very tough.

Ashraf Ghani's net worth is estimated to be 3 million dollars -- which is mostly tied up in his house in Kabul.

Ashraf Ghani was a World Bank Official -- he has no means to be a multi millionaire in the true sense.

The money weren't the responsibility of the Afghan government. They were handled by Americans. The Americans gave it to a second party, the second party gave it to third ets. and before they reach the actual destination, they were all looted. Karzai even complained about that. He said that the money should be handed to the local community so they could handle it probably for the initial purpose.

@Kaptaan
make a topic/thread regarding that and I discuss that issue with you

Still it was looted by Afghans.

 

[DSM0305]

Still it was looted by Afghans.

One can hardly call that looting. A more accurately to describe it would be ''handling''. It was handled badly by Americans, so the Afghans cant be held responsible for that. Even in first world countries, if it was handled the same way Americans handled the money in Afghanistan, the money would disappear no differently.

 

[pakistani342]

One can hardly call that looting. A more accurately to describe it would be ''handling''. It was handled badly by Americans, so the Afghans cant be held responsible for that.

mmmm, well it may have been handled badly by the Americans but at the end of the day it is the Afghans' country -- not the Americans.

Even in first world countries, if it was handled the same way Americans handled the money in Afghanistan, the money would disappear no differently.

Fair enough let us examine the following:

1. The Kabul Bank Scandal
2. The Karzais -- a leading political family, all lived abroad in the US -- became billionaire at the expense of the US Taxpayer
3. The ghost soldiers in the ANSF
4. The collusion in drug trade by the Afghan elite
5. The suitcases full of dollars leaving for Dubai

As an example in WWII the American elite put a freeze on raises -- that is where the concept of benefits comes from: since companies could not give raises to employees -- they handed out benefits: health care, etc.

So no -- there is a reason Afghanistan is the world most corrupt country (or there abouts) -- Afghans squandered a golden opportunity -- they have 80 TV channels but not a single engineering school or hard sciences school of note. This is no fault of the American.

A few years ago I wrote that in the AUAF there were more Pakistani professors than Afghans -- in hard sciences, mathematics and computer science. So again, just the US has 500,000 Afghan Americans (the same as the Pakistani Diaspora) -- how is it that there are more hated Pakistanis teaching key subjects in AUAF than there are Afghans.

Food for thought? definitely

 

[wiseone2]

@A-Team To be honest I am reconsidering my thoughts on Afghanistan. The truth is you are a rarity. Most Afghans either call us "Indian" or Punjabi lovers. Your friend @Kandahi is typical. I am not going to be make any apologies for the fact that we have many ethnic groups in Pakistan. They are all differant, some more, some less than others. Without telling you the district my family hail from, I can tell you we have at least three ethnic groups more or less in equal portions. The district is fracture zone between K-PK, Punjab and nearby Kashmir.

Now I am not going belittle or make dirty the other ethnic groups in our district. We have lived for generations in neighbouring villages. I have lived in Europe all my life and understand that man must move above parochial ethnic, tribal affiliations or we will have non ending war and conflict like we have had for centuries.

However many of your countrymen who themselves are riven along tribal, ethnic and religious chasms have the temerity to come and disrespect Pakistan under the narrative that Afghanistan is generic and Pakistan is false or artificial. That is monumental rubbish. I intend to open a thread in Afghan section to address this issue. Lets get this clear. Afghanistan, Pakistan and India are artificial. Three of them are products of European powers.

I give you one example. We get Afghans questioning about the Durand Line and claiming it was imposed. First if it was imposed why did you not take issue with the British before 1947? Was that because they were strong and if you questioned them they had habit of invading Kabul regularly? As soon as the British leave in 1947 and we have Durand being questioned.

However leaving the Durand alone. What is the Afghan border on the north like. You know the Amu Darya line? That border was also imposed by Russia/Britain. The Afghan Boundary Commision was headed by Russian and British officials who drew the line without any Afghan input. Have a look at the British officer - below. No it is not Durand but his name is General P. Lumsden and he was instrumental in drawing the line on Afghanistan's northern flank. We might as well call it the Lumsden Line.

General Sir Peter Stark Lumsden > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lumsden

The interesting fact is "Lumdsen Line" resulted in huge tract of area under Afghan nominal jurisdiction being grabbed by Russians - Panjdeh ring a bell? This huge tract of land is still in hands of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. When was the last time I heard any Afghan complain or threaten Turkmens or Uzbek governments for dissolving the "Lumsden Line" and reclaiming the lost Afghan land? I can't quite understand this on the part of Afghans? Why only Durand? What about Pandjdeh? And you will know Pakistan for all it's problems is far, far stronger than Turkmen and Uzbeks combined yet your countrymen stay ignorant about the north but b*tch and moan about the south - the Durand. There is deeply disturbing inequality about this.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident
Link > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Boundary_Commission

Now moving on to the other issue. Afghans rake up the ethnic fissures inside Pakistan - which exist. They make Pashtuns feel guilty for being in a federation with Punjabi and other groups. Asides from the fact that any attempt to try to draw a line between the two would lead to massive bloodshed - my district is example of that. This however is like a kettle calling the pot black.

If all of Afghanistan was generic Afghan (Pashtuns) then fine there might be some water in that argument. However Afghanistan is far from being Pashtun country. If Punjabi's are distant from Pashtuns will someone explain to me how a Hazara Mongol is closer to me? Because he certainly is not. He belongs to Mongolian race, a Shia and speaks Persian and I am supposed to ignore that? It is heights of duplicity for Afghans to peddle this ethnic argument.

The day Afghans shed all non Pashtun people than yes a movement in Pakistan would get wind behind it to unite with our Pashtun brothers across the border and Durand is dismantled. You might know if Afghanistan is prepared to dismantle the "Lumsden Line" and give the areas with Turkmen, Uzbeks, Tajiks to their respective countries including giving the Mongols in central Afghanistan their "Hazaraistan". Until then we are going to have wait.

Finally Afghanistan needs Pakistan far more than Pakistan needs Afghanistan. India, you can mollycoddle those wannabe's all you like but the real big boys in this region are going to be Chinese. For christ sakes they are the next hyperpower. Their economy is already as large as USA. In short in this trans Af-Pak region the only real enlarging shadow you will see is China. And you know the Chinese for strategic reasons are in with Pakistan.

I think Afghan's need to take this reality in. USA is not going to be there forever. Pakistan/China will. India, unless you build highways over the Pakistani airspace will remain a distant country. Chah Bahar or no Chah Bahar.

Ps. Ideally if there was cordial relation between Af-Pak I would prefer there be a open border like UK and Ireland had. Free movement of people and open trade but that is only possible if the issues are resolved begining with all the angst and Durand Line.

And I tried to tag @Kandahari but there is no response?

Afghanistan king fought 3 wars with British
They lost them

This region has been developing very fast with a very unstable Afghanistan for 40 years . @A-Team likes to imagine that The region wont develop if Afghanistan remains this way .

I have been saying this for a while now . Afghanistan needs to sort out its internal mess before talking of regional cooperation or regional connectivity . I mean its the 2nd most corrupt country in the world? Why would anyone invest here knowing that the leaders and warlords are the most corrupt people on earth ? $ 100 billion invested in Afghanistan and it still looks like it's stuck in the 80's . The ANA is in a big mess , Economy is shrinking , there are security problems , poverty is increasing , mentality of the people is not compatible to 21st century (this is the biggest factor) . I mean women still get gawked at when they drive in kabul (which is a rarity) , any female without a burqa is harassed and frowned upon, so the society as a whole is not in cahoots with 21st century . They need to sort out alot of the current mess before they are ready for the world .

India is growing at 7 % , Pakistan's Stock exchange is currently the best performing in Asia . The region is doing pretty well apart from Afghanistan because well they don't want to get their house in order .

OK get this out of the $ 17 billion afghan economy half of it is from drugs . I mean who's responsible for this ? Pakistan? Their warlords sell districts for money. Again is Pakistan responsible for this ? They have eaten up the $ 100 billion american money and not used it on their people , Again should Pakistan be blamed for this ? . you cannot blame GHQ or ISI making that place unstable as when they were stable pre - 79 they created all sorts of problems for us . So it's no wonder Pakistan is does not trust a stable Afghanistan . Yesterday I saw a few Afghan talk shows on how to ratchet up Pakhtoonistan issue . I mean they wont stop their Historic obsession with Pashtoon lands in Pakistan in their current miserable condition how do you expect Pakistan to let them get stable and start trouble for them again ?

The only Problem that needs to be sorted out is Pak - india problems . IDK why Afghanistan is hell bent on being the third wheel here .

What you are saying is that your army does not trust pakistani pathans to choose Pakistan over stable Afghanistan

 

[Manidabest]

a nice thread and i see that few afghans who always blamed Pakistan for their mess also realise that they have got many internal problems and pls dont blame Pakistanis for your own mess 2ndly Pakistani Pashtuns r happily living in Pakistan ..Punjabi Pashtun Baloch Sindhi Gilgit Baltistani they all have equal rights in Pakistan and they all own Pakistan and Pakistan belongs to them ....