15 Jordanian F-16 for sale

[AsifIjaz]

Congressional approval will become more difficult for the next few years IF
usa actually withdraws some troops from afghanistan
and
if the new afghan interior and security ministers keep on spewing filth.
Filth has two qualities, its sticky and smeels alot, two qualities which will be used by congressman for pointing more fingers at pakistan while sweeping the usa failures under the carpet.
After billions and billions of us dollars there is no justification for the usa *** whipping in afghanistan by the talibans. If history is a teacher then I suspect that the talibans will come out more stronger in the spring. A few more districts in north or west going under taliban control and the anti pakistani rhetoric will increase significantly. The usa and its puppet government will increasingly point more fingers towards pakistan.
The border fence and the upcoming block 3 will work provided we lobby to highlight them and other efforts on our part. Pakistan should use the talks initiative smartly and get as much as vipers and associated approvals as possible. We have an established infrastructure for the vipers and bcoz of that only they are worth the hassel. J10c, flankers or any other aircraft out there can not compete with vipers on integration and management for the very same reason.

 

[nahtanbob]

Congressional approval will become more difficult for the next few years IF
usa actually withdraws some troops from afghanistan
and
if the new afghan interior and security ministers keep on spewing filth.
Filth has two qualities, its sticky and smeels alot, two qualities which will be used by congressman for pointing more fingers at pakistan while sweeping the usa failures under the carpet.
After billions and billions of us dollars there is no justification for the usa *** whipping in afghanistan by the talibans. If history is a teacher then I suspect that the talibans will come out more stronger in the spring. A few more districts in north or west going under taliban control and the anti pakistani rhetoric will increase significantly. The usa and its puppet government will increasingly point more fingers towards pakistan.
The border fence and the upcoming block 3 will work provided we lobby to highlight them and other efforts on our part. Pakistan should use the talks initiative smartly and get as much as vipers and associated approvals as possible. We have an established infrastructure for the vipers and bcoz of that only they are worth the hassel. J10c, flankers or any other aircraft out there can not compete with vipers on integration and management for the very same reason.

if you cut off support to the taliban maybe people might not be accusing you

 

[gambit]

What the!??! Me an Indian!??! Hahahahahahahahaha!!! Jesus H Christ!!!! I pay my taxes!!!!

Hey @gambit and @jhungary I just became an Indian!!! Can you guys see anything on what I posted that made me an Indian!?

I'm from Paramus, NJ the Garden State you Dumb C*NT!!!! It's 8am here!!!

You should take it as a mark of distinction from the rest of the herd. I do. It means he cannot handle your argument and must resort to racist tactics.

 

[araz]

You should take it as a mark of distinction from the rest of the herd. I do. It means he cannot handle your argument and must resort to racist tactics.

No Gambit that was not the reason. Since you have indirectly rezponded to my post I think I should explain.
I have over the last decade seen a lot of Indians masquerading as XY and Z and there are certain linguistic traits which I found in his earlier post which were typical of such posts which was my reason to react. Perhaps I should have alerted the Moderators rwther than calling him out in public. If I have offended anyone I unreservedly apologize for this was not my intention. I am all for a healthy debate but whereas I have read quality posts from you and @jhungary I see a lot of rhetoric and abuse which is not befitting a professional. I have seen you angry and responding but you never let go of decency which he had. This is my last post on the topic. I am certainly not running away but a no ending confrontational to and fro is not my cup of tea purely because I do not have the time for it. It is the respect that I owe to your professionalism that I am explaining the events as transpired. I hope you and he will read it in the same spirit.
Regards
A

 

[araz]

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I judge a poster by his post, not where he came from, and I don't understand the need to claim or disclaim someone who are XXXX.

I can say, on this forum, I am whatever I am, but that does not mean anything, if you claim to be an electrical engineer, you would need to be able to converse in that field with appropriate content, if you do, then you will believe you are an electrical engineer, for me, whether or not you are a Chinese, Pakistani, American or Indian does not really matter, if I want to talk about electrical engineer stuff, I will call you in, and I will respect your opinion.

For me, I have my specific set of background (Not gonna go over them again or it will look like I am bragging) I can talk to you about stuff that I excel in, stuff that I had worked at, and I gain your respect that way, I don't BS you, I don't generally copy and paste information and I try my best to explain with my own experience what that is going to be like for the question you have asked me, and if I don't know about something, I will straight up and tell you I don't know. I am a usually cool guy, I still do lose my shit from time to time, mostly because I am drunk (I am always drunk as I said many, many time before) But in general, I don't lose my temper if things don't go my way, I will just walk away.

Now, as I said, I cannot say for everyone here, I treated everyone as if how I expect they will look at me, and my post. I don't mind people called me an Indian, a Pakistani, a Vietnamese Boat People (Which is the Chinese PDF favourite) as far as I concern, I tell people what I know, the best that I can tell them, that is up to them to "look at the menu"

On topic, the F-16 is not really some important article for the US, if US bar those sales to anyone (including Pakistan) those F-16 is going to end up in the bone yard anyway. So there are no reason why US would want to hold on to those birds. On the other hand, if Pakistan want to buy them or have them, then US would need a reason to sell them. It may come as a surprise to a few people, but when US sell their military article, new or used, they sell them because it benefit the National Interest of the United States, not Pakistan. So for the US to sell those bird, they need to gain something over it, and that's not just money.

Now whether or not Pakistani want to buy them is another issue altogether, that is all about Pakistan, if Pakistan don't want to buy them, thinking of they comes with a lot of strings, that's totally up to you, but if and when you want to buy them, then it is up to the US to see if it would benefit the US to do such a sale. How or what is needed? I don't know, I am not the States Department...

Fair and square which is why you are respected. I agree on the 16s which for uscremain relevant however it is upto the US to let go of them. That perception is based on whether they serve the US national interest.
A

 

[denel]

but the question would US allow Pakistan to utilize third party systems and subsystems with it fleet of F-16....???

Everything is possible it depends on how you approach it; for example IAI and TAI have been doing their own additions; look with every software integration they want to make the client remain vanilla flavour to that there is upgrade path; yet if you are sure on how to approach the integration, you can make sure that the extensions can be done without impact; this is what my team did all the time. It is just a fallacy especially with the mil bus specs and plug/play modularisation. All that is needed is a backbone with a leadership that shows the middle finger if that blackmail occurs; these are your babies, do what you want with them.

 

[FuturePAF]

Everything is possible it depends on how you approach it; for example IAI and TAI have been doing their own additions; look with every software integration they want to make the client remain vanilla flavour to that there is upgrade path; yet if you are sure on how to approach the integration, you can make sure that the extensions can be done without impact; this is what my team did all the time. It is just a fallacy especially with the mil bus specs and plug/play modularisation. All that is needed is a backbone with a leadership that shows the middle finger if that blackmail occurs; these are your babies, do what you want with them.

so how difficult is it to upgrade the Radar to the Turkish Radar planned for the F-16? How about upgrading avionics/software? would all of these require approval, or just the plus and play modularity, allow any end-user to just do unauthorized upgrades?

 

[MastanKhan]

so how difficult is it to upgrade the Radar to the Turkish Radar planned for the F-16? How about upgrading avionics/software? would all of these require approval, or just the plus and play modularity, allow any end-user to just do unauthorized upgrades?

Hi,

It is not difficult at all---. The issue is with the end user agreements with the seller---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

It is not difficult at all---. The issue is with the end user agreements with the seller---.

Considering the PAF will have to stipulate those terms in an agreement on the purchase of used F-16s, What sub-systems or upgrades can be left for US companies such that the sale would be in the US interest to authorize and allow foreign modification? Also what common national security interests do Pakistan and the US share that would make this sale worthwhile for the US?

 

[dBSPL]

Any Idea how soon the Turkish Ozgur Avionics and radar will mature to the level of the Block 70? It would be better to get the Turkish radar even if the US offers the Sabr; because the codes and missiles will not be known to as many entities. Also Turkey can integrate more and more weapons systems and they will be ready to go for ale to the PAF; while a US radar will need clearance and time to integrate new Turkish weapons.

Sir, Aselsan is currently working on a large number of AESA projects.

The most important of these are the CAFRAD (Naval Multi-purpose phased array radar suites), EIRS (Ground Based Early warning Radar systems with 600 km scanning radius) and the AESA nose radar for jets. Cafrad almost completed field tests and it can be accepted in 2019. For the EIRS range 2019-2020 is concerned.

AKINCI UCAV program also includes an AESA system. That is, the first gen air-AESA system should be ready on the same dates (2019-2020). AESA radars are one of the most important items in the first and second 100-day action plans. There is no official information on this subject, but I foresee a comprehensive modernization program in Turkish F-16s, such as 2020. And after that I'm guessing the next step will be AEW-C.

In terms of avionics, as I said, OZGUR project has been successfully completed and other than this most of avionics hardwares are ready to mass production. Mr. @cabatli_53 introduced many of these systems to related titles. Thanks to these studies, the Hurjet project(Hurjet meaning is Independent-Jet) will fly with completely indigenous avionics.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

OOOOOO, let's take this interesting notion to its own thread if you want to discuss it further.




ON topic, these Jordanian F-16s, or any other older jets from other countries, may make their way to Pakistan only if there is an improvement in the current state of ties between USA and Pakistan. It just might happen.



Simply put, and logical. Pakistan will need to show how its interests align with those of the US if it wants its hands on these jets, or any others. That is the only way international geopolitics works.

Kaka G agr app soch rahy hain k China OBOR ny trillion dollars ki investment sirf influence k lea kr raha ha then yr mistaken, orr abb ye protectionism jo America build kr raha ha, apny he globalization k concept k against jaty hue, this will add fuel to fire in China and others who get effected by it including Pakistan!

Dunya badal rahi ha kakay! tu Amreeka sy bahar nikal pehly phir tujhe pta chaly ga k dunya kya soch rahi ha orr kaha ja rahi ha!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Considering the PAF will have to stipulate those terms in an agreement on the purchase of used F-16s, What sub-systems or upgrades can be left for US companies such that the sale would be in the US interest to authorize and allow foreign modification? Also what common national security interests do Pakistan and the US share that would make this sale worthwhile for the US?

Sir, Aselsan is currently working on a large number of AESA projects.

The most important of these are the CAFRAD (Naval Multi-purpose phased array radar suites), EIRS (Ground Based Early warning Radar systems with 600 km scanning radius) and the AESA nose radar for jets. Cafrad almost completed field tests and it can be accepted in 2019. For the EIRS range 2019-2020 is concerned.

AKINCI UCAV program also includes an AESA system. That is, the first gen air-AESA system should be ready on the same dates (2019-2020). AESA radars are one of the most important items in the first and second 100-day action plans. There is no official information on this subject, but I foresee a comprehensive modernization program in Turkish F-16s, such as 2020. And after that I'm guessing the next step will be AEW-C.

In terms of avionics, as I said, OZGUR project has been successfully completed and other than this most of avionics hardwares are ready to mass production. Mr. @cabatli_53 introduced many of these systems to related titles. Thanks to these studies, the Hurjet project(Hurjet meaning is Independent-Jet) will fly with completely indigenous avionics.

Thanks for the info!!! When Bilkent University started R&D programs 3 decades ago on III-V, III-N etc devices, the building block for ultra fast receivers, transmitters etc., we were like little baffled!!!! The top Turkish expat professors were brought in and top notch labs, clean rooms etc. were established at a huge cost!!! And, thanks to the likes of Ozal, Demirel, Erbakan etc. ( ex Presidents and PMs) for understanding the strategic values for such spendings from meager budgets!!! Now, the results are here...

 

[FuturePAF]

Thanks for the info!!! When Bilkent University started R&D programs 3 decades ago on III-V, III-N etc devices, the building block for ultra fast receivers, transmitters etc., we were like little baffled!!!! The top Turkish expat professors were brought in and top notch labs, clean rooms etc. were established at a huge cost!!! And, thanks to the likes of Ozal, Demirel, Erbakan etc. ( ex Presidents and PMs) for understanding the strategic values for such spendings from meager budgets!!! Now, the results are here...

Pakistan is working with China to establish similar facilities to make the sub-systems in the future; may in 10-20 years time as Turkey has invested in decades past. Would turkey be willing to transfer some of its technology so Pakistan can better integrate Turkish, Chinese, and Indigenous systems like the Ra'ad Cruise Missile into its future warplanes? Turkish and Chinese weapons are limited by the MTCR, and Pakistan will need to be able to integrate longer range systems in as much secrecy as possible.

If Approved, turkey can look forward to nearly 100 PAF F-16s needing sub-system upgrades over the next decade and if more planes are procured, full MLU and Sub-system upgrades. operating these planes for another 15-20 years; the PAF needs to be able to maintain in house to reduce turn around times. setting up a Turkish facility in Pakistan for joint ventures will allow the latest Turkish munitions to be procured and integrated across the entire fleet; F-16s, JF-17 and future Project AZM aircraft. The success of exports to Pakistan, will increase the appeal of Turkish defense products even more, similar to how Chinese defense exports improved due to sales to Pakistan, and the experience gained there.

 

[nahtanbob]

Now to east pakistan.. Granted they were opressed and marginalized but the same thing happens in every country or in every 3rd or 4th household but situation always blows out of proportion when an evil, a devil, a swine opportunistic person or a warmongering organization takes advantage of this situation. In east pakistan case it was the indian state that played that role. So the above is a short history of bangladesh.

the East Pakistanis were geographically separated. they were culturally different.
We can say the Afghans and Central Asians would have same differences with pakistanis
yet some pakistanis seems determined to seek a closer union with those regions

Now that is precisely the reason for pakistani problem. Let me throw some light for you.. U trained to make innocent men to become freedom fighters, they sacrifice their lives for your bipolar world fight to end cold war and u leave the now emotionless trained gorilla fighters right in the middle of a god forsaken country with no skill or education but the stone heart and an expertise in killing and fighting... And then u turn and call them millitants. The above is what happened in afghanistan. Most of afghans civilians were living in pakistan by then and the same now called militants were used to being treated, housed and travelled in and out of the region through west/usa backing via pakistan... Long story short it was a pakistani problem which had the potential to be blown out of proportion and also used by raw to ignite the old debate that we dont accept durand line.
Hence the need for pakistani involvement and patronage. Usa was thousands of miles away from these people but pakistan was a stone throw away and these people were master of using the mountain routes and passages some of which were opened by assistance crom west and its surveillance.

Let me buy the argument that there was no alternative for pakistani involvement in afghanistan.
if that was true it has been managed in less than competent manner

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pakistan is working with China to establish similar facilities to make the sub-systems in the future; may in 10-20 years time as Turkey has invested in decades past. Would turkey be willing to transfer some of its technology so Pakistan can better integrate Turkish, Chinese, and Indigenous systems like the Ra'ad Cruise Missile into its future warplanes? Turkish and Chinese weapons are limited by the MTCR, and Pakistan will need to be able to integrate longer range systems in as much secrecy as possible.

If Approved, turkey can look forward to nearly 100 PAF F-16s needing sub-system upgrades over the next decade and if more planes are procured, full MLU and Sub-system upgrades. operating these planes for another 15-20 years; the PAF needs to be able to maintain in house to reduce turn around times. setting up a Turkish facility in Pakistan for joint ventures will allow the latest Turkish munitions to be procured and integrated across the entire fleet; F-16s, JF-17 and future Project AZM aircraft. The success of exports to Pakistan, will increase the appeal of Turkish defense products even more, similar to how Chinese defense exports improved due to sales to Pakistan, and the experience gained there.

If I were in the Pak academia, I’d have suggested some joint research programs with the top Turkish universities along with building state of the art labs, cleanrooms etc....